Tigranes' Armenians?

[DBS]

Bear in mind that during this period, no one civilised defined themselves as Arabs.  So polities such as Nabatea and Hatra claimed rulership over Arabs, but did not regard themselves as Arab. The term Arab was pretty ill defined anyway... seems to have been loosely applied to anyone who lived in the Near East with nomadic tendencies or heritage that were not evidently Iranian in their origins.

Arabic as a culture only really starts becoming semi-respectable in the later Roman empire, paradoxically because leading Arab figures become more acculturated to Roman/Greek ways (and the Romans reluctantly recognise that they need the Arabs on their side)...

[CarlL]

"no one civilised" .. wow...
CarlL

[DBS]

I quite obviously mean in the context of the time.  FWIW, I have worked alongside Arabs (and other regional nationalities) in the Near and Middle East, and have a deep respect for their culture.  The Romans and the Greeks on the other hand... and indeed the Nabataeans and Hatran elites for that matter...

[Trev]

It's certainly a very complicated area culturally.  I was thinking that having some idea about the main cultures of the vassals might give some clues as to what troop types would be appropriate, in the absence of other data.  It's best guess time but better than nothing.  The ADLG list allows Tigranes to have Arab and Atropatene (Parthian list) allies.  The rest would have to be covered with the existing main troop types.  For a game legal army list anyway.  For scenario games that's obviously not an issue.

The main Armenian list is mostly Cataphracts, Horse Archers, Javelinmen and Bowmen besides the specials already mentioned. Some of the horse archers could be Mardians, modeled looking more Scythian than the Armenians, if I'm right about their origin.  Some nobles could be Cataphracts, but I don't know how you'd distinguish them from Armenians for that to be worthwhile.  Javelinmen and Bowmen could be from a variety of backgrounds.  Greek colonist Peltasts are an obvious one.  I can probably find or kitbash something believable as Aramaic, or perhaps Jewish, archers.  Those pointed Assyrian style helmets seem appropriate.  I wonder if anyone looking like a classic Assyrian archer still existed by this date?  Those Roman Syrian Auxiliary Archers must have come from somewhere too but the Trajan's column look is a good while later, so that's maybe too much of a stretch.

[dwkay57]

The 3 WRG reference books I mentioned earlier would tend to suggest that clothing styles weren't influenced by the latest trends and some of the drawings provide examples on which the various "allies" could be based.

[Jim Webster]

I did a bit of reading last night, mostly wiki, and this is my summary of what I found on the vassal kingdoms.

Kommagene - Hellenised Orontid Armenian/Iranian Elite, Hellenised Aramaic people with Iranian influence

They also seem to have had access to Seleucid military settlers (or at least phalangites)
At least they did have by the time of the Jewish revolt

[Trev]

The 3 WRG reference books I mentioned earlier would tend to suggest that clothing styles weren't influenced by the latest trends and some of the drawings provide examples on which the various "allies" could be based.

Hi David.  I have AMPW and AEIR.  I have checked through and there are some seemingly appropriate units - Arab, Jewish, Greek, maybe an odd Seleucid troop type.  I couldn't see anything particularly for the vassal kingdoms though or much Aramaic/Syrian to indicate retention of old Assyrian styles.  Was the third book you mentioned the WRG Lists?  I don't have the oldest WRG army lists but I do have the DBx ones.  Have I missed something else?

They also seem to have had access to Seleucid military settlers (or at least phalangites)
At least they did have by the time of the Jewish revolt

Hi Jim.  The ADLG Tigranes Options seems to be lacking a bit in heavy infantry both in numbers and possible options.  Mithridates seems to have had actual phalangites in Greece and Tigranes has 'phalanxes', as Pharnaces did later, if my memory serves.  So I'm happy to assume some remnant military settlers in the area even if they were probably dwindling fast.  Given the miserly numbers of phalangites and imitation legionaries in the ADLG list, a Commagene ally would help on that score.  An Arab/Aramean ally feels missing too but those units can mostly be covered by the Armenian troop categories looking at the other lists in the various list books.

On the subject of troop lists I remembered yesterday that Luke Ueda-Sarson has a battle scenario for Tigranocerta on his web site here.  There is not much on the look of the units, and sadly, Luke hasn't done one of his alternative DBM lists for the Armenians, but the discussion does include his usual thorough trawl of the written sources. That would prove useful for a deeper dive later. There is lots of good stuff on Lucullus' Roman forces too. 

Thanks all for the input.

[dwkay57]

The third WRG reference book was "Armies of the Greek and Persian Wars" by Richard Nelson which I think is still available via the WRG site. That has some drawings of Persian subject allies from around the Armenian area. Nearly all have circular shields, spear a light helmet, tunic and either leggings or bare legs.

Figures 94 & 95 in the AIER are useful as potentially is 91.In AMPW everything from about figure 76 to figure 85 could apply to some of Tigranes northern allies.

Based on what I've researched for my Near-Eastern armies, you could probably use a mix of late Assyrians, late Seleucid, Parthian and basic tunic clad figures without too many eyebrows being raised.

[Trev]

Thanks David.  I see what you mean now.  I'm sure someone at the club has a the Greek and Persian book. I'll hunt it down.

I'm also sure I can get away with a lot.  It's probably only me that even cares.

[CarlL]

Keep Wargaming can sell / provide copies of out of print WRG army books (not thinking army list books but they have them too) see
https://www.keepwargaming.co.uk/wrg-old-and-out-of-print-titles-138-c.asp
CarlL

[Trev]

Thanks Carl.

I found some of Duncan's wise words in this old thread, started by David.  It goes some way to answering my queries about the vassals.

Most of the art from Hatra and Edessa/Osrhoene shows Parthian-style costume by the 1st century BC or so, though it is hard to say how far down the social scale that fashion extended. I suspect that is true of all the "Arab-Aramean" states except for the Nabataeans, who seem to have been closer to their Arab roots and of course were less under Parthian influence. There is an article, though. that suggests that at Palmyra there were multiple distinct styles of dress: one the "Parthian" trousers/tunic/over-leggings/sleeved cloak that we associate with Palmyran soldiers, an "indigenous" style with "Arabian" waistcloth, and Hellenistic styles (found it: Susan Downey, "Arms and Armour as social coding in Palmyra, the Palmyrene, and Dura-Europos", in Mode (ed.) Arms and Armour as indicators of cultural transfer).

and this one from a link in that thread to here.

The Zahhak Castle warrior is a fascinating chap who deserves a proper study, which I am not aware he has had. His shield reminds me very much of the Domitius Ahenobarbus scuta, his long robe girded up in front over tight trousers is the style worn on reliefs of Commagenean and Adiabenean kings, and his curved dagger is reminiscent of early Parthian examples - or foreign trophies - from Old Nisa. He's presumably an Atropatenean Mede. It's such a shame that the helmet (or cap?) and the spear are incomplete.

[CarlL]

Great detective  (search) work Trev.
Great image too. I wonder if those 'creases' on his legs are intended to convey loose fitting trousers?
Lots of starting points there for figure hunting: a bearded, cloaked figure, carrying long & narrow 'scuta'(?) with boss and spine, dagger (... like early Saxons carrying Seax!?) spear; with possibly long coat tied at waist with belt over this, and under garment of knee length tunic and possibly loose trousers (but probably not over baggy)?

Great work Trev. Enjoy building that army.
CarlL

[Swampster]

Great detective  (search) work Trev.
Great image too. I wonder if those 'creases' on his legs are intended to convey loose fitting trousers?
Lots of starting points there for figure hunting: a bearded, cloaked figure, carrying long & narrow 'scuta'(?) with boss and spine, dagger (... like early Saxons carrying Seax!?) spear; with possibly long coat tied at waist with belt over this, and under garment of knee length tunic and possibly loose trousers (but probably not over baggy)?

Great work Trev. Enjoy building that army.
CarlL

I would interpret it as cloak, tight-ish trousers with just enough slack to wrinkle and a calf length tunic which is hitched up with something from the belt. Tunic looks longer than 'Median' - perhaps the same length as the Elamite here https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/clothing-ii#prettyPhoto[content]/0/
That figure also may have some kind of skirt hitcher hanging from the belt.

[Trev]

Great detective  (search) work Trev.

I'm just eavesdropping on the shoulders of giants. 

That 'Zahhak Castle warrior' is certainly interesting.  The shoulders look cloak-like to me, perhaps with a long overcoat and thigh length under tunic.  Sadly, the headgear is too damaged to be sure if it's a helmet or a cap.   I wonder if there was any basis for the recreation of the barbed spear?   

[Trev]

I would interpret it as cloak, tight-ish trousers with just enough slack to wrinkle and a calf length tunic which is hitched up with something from the belt. Tunic looks longer than 'Median' - perhaps the same length as the Elamite here https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/clothing-ii#prettyPhoto[content]/0/
That figure also may have some kind of skirt hitcher hanging from the belt.

Without the cloak the coat could be similar to the Scythian/Saka figures represented on the Darius relief.  Numbers 7,8,14,15,24,25.

Several are damaged and others are lacking the folding detail though.  Here is a good picture.  Right click and open it up to see the detail or follow the link.