Charging terms

[DBS]

Two reasons I have never been inclined to give any credence to British scythed vehicles: a) as far as we know, none of the primary sources who had actually seen British chariotry in the wild make mention of them (an surely would have leapt at the chance to highlight exotic "otherness"; and b) if Caesar's description of chariotry fighting is even remotely accurate - and we have no reason to discount it - then I suspect the last thing any chariot warrior jumping in and out of his vehicle would want would be big, nasty, sharp things sticking out the side.  It is a bit like the observation that one British officer once made that service revolvers probably inflicted more casualties on friendly forces by accident, than they ever inflicted on the enemy...

A third argument would be that the chariots would not have been designed for use against Romans, but most likely for inter-tribal warfare.  There is the danger that because we know most about clashes with the Romans, rather than unrecorded unpleasantness against neighbouring tribes, that we assume a barbarian military system is optimised for fighting Romans.  If one is more likely to, say. challenge a rival champion to a fight, or lead a cattle raid, why stick scythes on your vehicle?

[Ian61]

Interesting, you live and learn I had heard of Mela from the geographical side but Silius is new to me.

Duncan (Campbell) references Pomponius Mela (Chor.3.6.=2) and Silius Italicus (Sil.Ital Pun. 17.418-19) in terms of the potential for scythes on chariots.

Pomponius Mela's Description of the World #128 (p116)
Describing Britain he clearly has some reasonable ideas as he almost certainly finished writing after the Claudian invasion. There also rather fanciful parts (the Irish sheep bursting from overeating the lush grass!) The passage is:

"They make war not only on horseback or on foot but also from two-horse chariots; and cars armed in the Gallic fashion-they call them covinni-on which they use axles equipped with scythes."

The Silius Italicus work I can't seem to find in English (No I do not need to) but as the work supposedly deals with the Punic wars it can only be an asside.

[Ian61]

Sorry came in as I was typing previous

then I suspect the last thing any chariot warrior jumping in and out of his vehicle would want would be big, nasty, sharp things sticking out the side.

Yes we have discussed this here and agree with your arguments. We do know some heavy chariots from the middle east had scythes but were used very differently. We suspect a bit of fanciful conflation to spice up the accounts. (Not 100% convinced that we can trust Julius!)

[Erpingham]

If one is more likely to, say. challenge a rival champion to a fight, or lead a cattle raid, why stick scythes on your vehicle?

Well, in Cuchulain's case, because you are a champion. A sort-of "pimp my ride" thing. That said, I tend to think Cuchulain's scythed chariot is a classically-influenced fantasy  But it is possible that classical authors have been influenced by sightings of "show" vehicles from post the period when chariots were in combat use.

[DBS]

(Not 100% convinced that we can trust Julius!)

On political matters, he was a self serving propagandist, so large doses of salt needed. I am more trusting on straight military matters; if he erred, it seems more likely an error of perception or comprehension than plain fabrication. As I say, I am sure he would have delighted in claiming that he had not only crossed the Ocean to land in Britain but had then fought chariots, and chariots with scythes on them! What a genius and military visionary!

[Mick Hession]

Cuchulainn's scythed chariot is considered to be a later interpolation. I think it's the only episode in the entire Red Branch cycle where anyone actually fights from a chariot, as elsewhere the warriors dismount to fight.

[Nick Harbud]

There also rather fanciful parts (the Irish sheep bursting from overeating the lush grass!)

Holy exploding ruminants, Batman! 

Mind you, from the descriptions of the condition, it does not sound entirely out of the question.  Does anyone know of any rules that cater for using bloated sheep as artillery ammunition and, if so, what sort of effect do they have?

Incidentally, I suggest that any members confronted by such afflicted animals in an enclosed space should extinguish all naked flames.

 

[Imperial Dave]

having been up close to a bloated (and very dead) upside down cow.....this is no joke.

 

[Nick Harbud]

Of course, one of the sports enjoyed by King Augustus III of Poland involved a form of clay pigeon shooting with cows tossed into the air by trebuchet providing the targets.

Pull!

[Keraunos]

And with what did Augustus try to shoot his flying ruminants?  Crossbows?  Catapults?  Cannon?  Whatever his weapon of choice, the very idea of it makes me shudder.

[Imperial Dave]

or udder....?