Big in Japan?

[Erpingham]

Having struggled with where to place this, I've decided on here 

Elsewhere on the forum, Jon Freitag has advertised his latest game series thus

Well, quasi in-period in that the battle refought was the 1572 Battle of Mikata Ga Hara.  Still, with longbow, horse archers, armored cavalry, and spearmen present on the field, the battle seemed to fit into a Medieval context. 

Technically, this is scope-creep for the forum, though I will note other samurai actions have been reported on e.g. by Mick Hession.

Now, we have been clear that the Society timeframe ending at 1500 as arbitrary and not hard and fast.  But 72 years?

On Jon's blog I and other Palouse Pals (he has so many followers, he can raise a battalion) have considered whether Medieval rules are appropriate to Samurai games in this period.  Personally, I think it makes little sense to break the development of Samurai warfare in 1500 just because of events on the other side of the world in Europe.  Its not a period I have any serious knowledge of but continuity seems to be the order of the day.  I am happy, therefore, to have Jon's Samurai games on the forum.  However, I am open to challenge - if there is a lot of unhappiness, Jon will be told to cease and desist posting these reports.

Any thoughts/opinions?

[John GL]

I'm perfectly happy with non-European 16th century games on here, on the basis that they largely portray medieval or earlier technology.  As Slingshot editor I published articles about 1590s Moroccan trans-Saharan campaigns and nobody complained (they were jolly good articles).

[Duncan Head]

How many teppō were on the field?

European-style matchlocks were introduced in 1543 and made a pretty big impression quite quickly. I see battles after that date as more comparable to European pike-and-shot period battles than late-mediaeval ones, and so I am not generally in favour.

[Imperial Dave]

We are euro-centric in (wargaming) outlook. I see no issue personally with this "creep" as to all intents and purposes it feels medieval in nature...

[Mick Hession]

I believe every Samurai army I have encountered in nominally ancient/medieval games has used 16th Century figures regardless of its nominal date. Armies before the arrival of the arquebus are medieval to me. From the battle of Nagashino on we are in the gunpowder age. The period in between (1543-1574) is a bit of grey area, equivalent to the Italian Wars in Europe.

[Jon Freitag]

Well, I am happy to voluntarily cease and desist before being publicly censured...

[Erpingham]

Well, I am happy to voluntarily cease and desist before being publicly censured...

It is down to a jury of your peers 

[Jon Freitag]

How many teppō were on the field?

Duncan, there were two teppo units out of thirty total combat units on the field.

[Martin Smith]

Personally, I'm in favour, even though I'm not a samurai warfare fan. Otherwise we'll start to 'ban' anything with medieval handgunners eg...

[Keraunos]

A certain amount of latitude is not something to raise the hackles.  The question is just how much latitude to grant.  In 1860s Japan, Samurai swordsmen and Ashigaru spearmen were still taking to the field along with musket armed levies and new units sporting the latest rifles.  How does one classify that?

[Aetius]

I don't mind at all as long as it seems like a Medieval Battle with guns not dominating the battlefield...

[Jim Webster]

To quote the wiki, the source of all righteousness,

"As a result, in the year 1567, Takeda Shingen announced that "Hereafter, the guns will be the most important arms. Therefore, decrease the number of spears per unit, and have your most capable men carry guns".[14] At the Battle of Nagashino in 1575, 3,000 arquebusiers helped win the battle, firing by volleys of 1,000 at a time, and secured across a river and breastwork to effectively stop enemy infantry and cavalry charges while being protected."

Any date is arbitrary, but I'd suggest somewhere between 1567 and 1575

One date isn't going to suit the whole world. After all in Africa you had the Ethiopian–Adal War 1529 to 1543 where you have the Portuguese coming in on the side of Christian Ethiopia and the Ottomans supporting the  Adal Sultanate. Very much 'Renaissance' 

[Erpingham]

I don't mind at all as long as it seems like a Medieval Battle with guns not dominating the battlefield...

If we are going to create a cut off based on technology, I've always had in my head the mass use of effective portable/hand held firearms. If we want a broad view, in Europe probably about 1520-ish (some a bit sooner, some a bit later).  It sounds from quoted information, in Japan its somewhere between 1550 and 1575.  I recall Nagashino was gun-dominated but that maybe from Kurosawa movies  Other places, other times.

John's "Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" approach seems a chilled way to approach the issue.

[Duncan Head]

I believe every Samurai army I have encountered in nominally ancient/medieval games has used 16th Century figures regardless of its nominal date.

Which is a bit of a shame in itself, as there are a few nice earlier Samurai ranges out there.

[nikgaukroger]

Prefer pre-samurai myself; although I have gone and bought 3 boxes of the Wargames Atlantic 10mm stuff more or less on a whim ...