Could the Persian Empire logistically support an army several million strong?

[Justin Swanton]

Here's another problem with 1 700 000 soldiers (you're welcome  ). Xerxes stops at Doriscos and counts his army. He does this by getting 10 000 men - probably his Immortals - to bunch together in a single space. A circle is drawn around the crowd and a fence put up (obviously with several gaps). The rest of the soldiers are then made to enter the enclosure, fill it, and leave, with a scribe ticking off the number of times the enclosure is filled. For 1 700 000 men that would require 170 fillings and emptyings. How long would it actually take to do that? How long was Xerxes at Doriscos?

[Jim Webster]

Jim, have you ever thought such an unreliable epitomator might make an interesting character in a fantasy novel?

tis done Anthony
I'll stick it on the Tallis Steelyard Blog and put a link in to this thread for you 

Here you are Anthony, and others. An Unreliable Epitomator

https://tallissteelyard.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/an-unreliable-epitomator/

[Justin Swanton]

Jim, have you ever thought such an unreliable epitomator might make an interesting character in a fantasy novel?

tis done Anthony
I'll stick it on the Tallis Steelyard Blog and put a link in to this thread for you 

Here you are Anthony, and others. An Unreliable Epitomator

https://tallissteelyard.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/an-unreliable-epitomator/

I like it Jim. Well written.

[Patrick Waterson]

Here's another problem with 1 700 000 soldiers (you're welcome  ). Xerxes stops at Doriscos and counts his army. He does this by getting 10 000 men - probably his Immortals - to bunch together in a single space. A circle is drawn around the crowd and a fence put up (obviously with several gaps). The rest of the soldiers are then made to enter the enclosure, fill it, and leave, with a scribe ticking off the number of times the enclosure is filled. For 1 700 000 men that would require 170 fillings and emptyings. How long would it actually take to do that? How long was Xerxes at Doriscos?

An excellent question.  Herodotus VII.59:

"The territory of Doriscus is in Thrace, a wide plain by the sea, and through it flows a great river, the Hebrus; here had been built that royal fortress which is called Doriscus, and a Persian guard had been posted there by Darius ever since the time of his march against Scythia. [2] It seemed to Xerxes to be a fit place for him to arrange and number his army, and he did so. All the ships had now arrived at Doriscus, and the captains at Xerxes' command brought them to the beach near Doriscus, where stands the Samothracian city of Sane, and Zone; at the end is Serreum, a well-known headland. This country was in former days possessed by the Cicones. [3] To this beach they brought in their ships and hauled them up for rest [anepsukhon - let the ships rest and get dry]. Meanwhile Xerxes made a reckoning of his forces at Doriscus."

The answer thus appears to be: long enough for the warships to be hauled up onto the beach for a good dry-out.

[Prufrock]

Quite a while at Doriscos.

This is the suggested timetable found in Green:

Leave Sardis at end of March.
Begin crossing at Abydos May 10th or so.
Head of column arrives in Doriscos c.May 16th; tail of column May 22nd.
Depart Doriscus mid June (c.16th).
Arrive Strymon River beginning of July.
Reach Therme c. 24 July.
Leave Therme beginning of August.

Head of column / first column arrives at Thermopylae August 14th.

[Patrick Waterson]

But please, provide one example from ancient literature of an army than advanced in a column 300 men abreast? Come on, just one

Sadly I have none of an army advancing on so narrow a frontage, but I have two of Persian armies advancing on a considerably greater frontage.  The question is: once I cite them, is Jim going to accept that Persian armies did happily and habitually advance on a wide front rather than in a long column of route?

"And now it was midday, and the enemy were not yet in sight; but when afternoon was coming on, there was seen a rising dust, which appeared at first like a white cloud, but some time later like a kind of blackness in the plain, extending over a great distance. As the enemy came nearer and nearer, there were presently flashes of bronze here and there, and spears and the hostile ranks began to come into sight." - Xenophon, Anabasis I.8.8

"Thereupon with one silent attendant who knew the country he sent me to some lofty cliffs a long distance from there, from which, unless one's eyesight was impaired, even the smallest object was visible at a distance of fifty miles. There we stayed for two full days, and at dawn of the third day we saw below us the whole circuit of the lands (which we call horizontes) filled with innumerable troops with the king leading the way, glittering in splendid attire. Close by him on the left went Grumbates, king of the Chionitae, a man of moderate strength, it is true, and with shrivelled limbs, but of a certain greatness of mind and distinguished by the glory of many victories. On the right was the king of the Albani,  of equal rank, high in honour. After them came various leaders, prominent in reputation and rank, followed by a multitude of every degree, chosen from the flower of the neighbouring nations and taught to endure hardship by long continued training. How long, storied Greece, will you continue to tell us of Doriscus, the city of Thrace, and of the armies drawn up in troops within enclosures and numbered? For I am too cautious, or (to speak more truly) too timid, to exaggerate anything beyond what is proven by trustworthy and sure evidence." - Ammianus XVIII.6.21-23

OK, the second example is of a Sassanid army rather than an Achaemenid one, but it looks as if old habits die hard.

[Erpingham]

Could I just check how the army is carrying its non-food supplies e.g. the large numbers of arrows it needs?  Are we assuming that these are being carried by the camp followers (disregarding those on special duties)?

Given the occasional reference to 'harmata' (which could be chariots or wagons) there may have been some wheeled transport in the Persian lineup.  Whether these rather than pack animals would be carrying ammunition, farriers' tools etc. is anyone's guess, but I would incline to iit being the likelier option.

Herodotus, of course, gives us 20,000 charioteers.  This would give the army 5,000 - 10,000 vehicles.  I don't know if Near Eastern armies regularly used their chariots as baggage vehicles.  Also, if operating with so many vehicles already (which would have required much more levelling and clearing by the construction battalion than Justin has so far allowed, I think) did the persian army not use wagons instead of baggage animals? 

[Jim Webster]

Jim, have you ever thought such an unreliable epitomator might make an interesting character in a fantasy novel?

tis done Anthony
I'll stick it on the Tallis Steelyard Blog and put a link in to this thread for you 

Here you are Anthony, and others. An Unreliable Epitomator

https://tallissteelyard.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/an-unreliable-epitomator/

I like it Jim. Well written.

thanks 

[Erpingham]

Well I think you go wrong there at the first step. Our understanding of the Persian Empire is absolutely fine if we reject these figures - indeed because most people reject these figures, our understanding of the Persina Empire is already based on the assumption that these figures are incorrect.


For circular arguments, this one has to win a prize.

Not really.  If the current model of the Persian Empire is based on an assumption then reaffirming the assumption will change nothing.  Doesn't mean the assumption is right but it is logically consistent.

[Jim Webster]

Could I just check how the army is carrying its non-food supplies e.g. the large numbers of arrows it needs?  Are we assuming that these are being carried by the camp followers (disregarding those on special duties)?

Given the occasional reference to 'harmata' (which could be chariots or wagons) there may have been some wheeled transport in the Persian lineup.  Whether these rather than pack animals would be carrying ammunition, farriers' tools etc. is anyone's guess, but I would incline to iit being the likelier option.

Herodotus, of course, gives us 20,000 charioteers.  This would give the army 5,000 - 10,000 vehicles.  I don't know if Near Eastern armies regularly used their chariots as baggage vehicles.  Also, if operating with so many vehicles already (which would have required much more levelling and clearing by the construction battalion than Justin has so far allowed, I think) did the persian army not use wagons instead of baggage animals?

Some armies seem to have pulled their chariots on campaign with draught animals, even bullocks (I think the Indians did this?) to spre the horses for battle
I think the Persians might have done this, but whether they did or not I suspect the chariot was too busy being used for the crew's kit than as general baggage.
But their presence does remind me that the presence of ox carts (for example) probably wouldn't demand much more road clearing than was needed for the chariots etc.
Whilst travelling in the dry time would have many disadvantages, from the point of view of road wear it was an advantage 

[Erpingham]

"The Persian fleet put to sea and reached the beach of the Magnesian land, between the city of Casthanaea and the headland of Sepia. The first ships to arrive moored close to land, with the others after them at anchor; since the beach was not large, they lay at anchor in rows eight ships deep out into the sea."

If I read this correctly, one eighth of the ships 'moored close to land' without actually beaching.  The rest dropped the hook (or stone) in open water.

They can't do this for long, because they need to rewater and resupply.  Galleys normally beach to do this.  Riding at anchor would be highly risky - galleys were very vulnerable to the weather.  In fact, why build a canal to avoid storms if you are going to lie offshore everyday? 

[Erpingham]

Sadly I have none of an army advancing on so narrow a frontage, but I have two of Persian armies advancing on a considerably greater frontage.  The question is: once I cite them, is Jim going to accept that Persian armies did happily and habitually advance on a wide front rather than in a long column of route?

Looks like a major change of tack there Patrick.  The narrow column has been one thing that everyone so far has accepted - we are working with Justin's 300 metre road.  Are you now proposing that the army advanced on a wide front?  If so, how did they do this, if their advance has been predicated by Justin on massive advanced engineering works and single mega camps?  How does it fit with the supply by sea and the depot strategy?  It certainly gives a new perspective on choke points, with the army expanding and contracting more regularly than would be required by Justin.

[Erpingham]

Some armies seem to have pulled their chariots on campaign with draught animals, even bullocks (I think the Indians did this?) to spre the horses for battle
I think the Persians might have done this, but whether they did or not I suspect the chariot was too busy being used for the crew's kit than as general baggage.

The problem with this is it adds another 10,000-20,000 animals and we have enough problems with forage as it is.  Given the unsuitability of the terrain for massed chariot use before you get to Greece proper, might they just have marched the men and animals overland to re-unite them with their vehicles, dropped off by the Landing Craft Chariots on a convenient beach later? 

You know, this topic would be quite fascinating if you started with realistic numbers because the numbers thing is really overshadowing what a major achievement the Persian advance through Greece was.  OK, it's up there with sailing the Baltic fleet to the Far East in terms of end result but its impressive none the less.

[Jim Webster]

Some armies seem to have pulled their chariots on campaign with draught animals, even bullocks (I think the Indians did this?) to spre the horses for battle
I think the Persians might have done this, but whether they did or not I suspect the chariot was too busy being used for the crew's kit than as general baggage.

The problem with this is it adds another 10,000-20,000 animals and we have enough problems with forage as it is.  Given the unsuitability of the terrain for massed chariot use before you get to Greece proper, might they just have marched the men and animals overland to re-unite them with their vehicles, dropped off by the Landing Craft Chariots on a convenient beach later? 

You know, this topic would be quite fascinating if you started with realistic numbers because the numbers thing is really overshadowing what a major achievement the Persian advance through Greece was.  OK, it's up there with sailing the Baltic fleet to the Far East in terms of end result but its impressive none the less.

Yes I'm beginning to think that the Persians did have something like 3 or 4 'logistics/supply chain' people to every fighting man for this campaign.
Think of the engineering staff they sent ahead build roads and level ground. Almost by definition this couldn't have been local corvee labour because they'd already asked the locals to increase agricultural output and stockpile food.
When you take into account men unloading boats and managing and guarding the stores, they're all going to have to be fed, and if they're just fed from local surplus, it merely means that less local surplus is available to supply troops and the baggage travelling with them.

[Flaminpig0]

  Given the unsuitability of the terrain for massed chariot use before you get to Greece proper, might they just have marched the men and animals overland to re-unite them with their vehicles, dropped off by the Landing Craft Chariots on a convenient beach later? 

I suspect that depends on whether the chariot is someone's personal property which they would want to keep site of and the willingness of the charioteers to be reduced to mere infantry for a long period of time.   I do like the mental image of Landing Craft Chariot though  and I wonder if we could go further and posit the idea of amphibious Duplex Drive chariots for beach assaults