Arthur's dykes

[Jim Webster]

Almost certainly Jim unless specific books are read that explain the difference between written and spoken english

Yes I wonder how much will survive in a thousand years time. If like the Roman world, we pass through a 'dark age' perhaps not a lot

[Imperial Dave]

This is the point that is made several times over across different treatises on the subject. We have very little evidence for spoken languages during this period and are reliant on written evidence often in a completely different language to those we are interested in! As Stephen alluded to earlier, there are assumed splits in the root languages for many British languages of the high medieval period that were forged in the period we are interested in. Professor Koch, amongst others, has spent a lot if time 'recreating' or at least identifying older branches of goidelic and brythonic sub sets

[Jim Webster]

This is the point that is made several times over across different treatises on the subject. We have very little evidence for spoken languages during this period and are reliant on written evidence often in a completely different language to those we are interested in! As Stephen alluded to earlier, there are assumed splits in the root languages for many British languages of the high medieval period that were forged in the period we are interested in. Professor Koch, amongst others, has spent a lot if time 'recreating' or at least identifying older branches of goidelic and brythonic sub sets

I can imagine his successor a thousand years hence working back and coming up with English and perhaps suggesting that there were dialects, but I cannot imagine he would recreate Glasgow or even Devon dialects

I suspect our problem is that when we are looking at the language spoke by illiterate rural villagers the linguists would find it impossible to get down to the level of detail we're toying with 

[Imperial Dave]

exactly. Add into the mix shifting ethnicity then it becomes a swirling morass of unknowns and unfathomables. I suspect a multitude of dialects originated and thrived all over the British Isles once Latin lost its hold and Brythonic was allowed to rise or fall along with the introduction of Germanic in certain areas.

[Jim Webster]

exactly. Add into the mix shifting ethnicity then it becomes a swirling morass of unknowns and unfathomables. I suspect a multitude of dialects originated and thrived all over the British Isles once Latin lost its hold and Brythonic was allowed to rise or fall along with the introduction of Germanic in certain areas.

Even in my own lifetime, when I was younger, the population in the villages around Barrow-in-Furness had a very different dialect/accent to that of Barrow itself.
Forty years later, populations have mixed more and people now live in the villages and work in Barrow more, so the difference is less and largely confined to older inhabitants

[Anton]

The question is how great a hold did Latin have on the general population?

Barrow had industry and I'd guess that pulled people in from quite far afield in its hey day bringing new linguistic influences.  The easiest discernible linguistic divide in the North East of England is the Mek and Mak and it doesn't seem explainable by a geographic feature.

[Imperial Dave]

it would obviously depend on the level of Romanitas (a combination of the level of urbanity, demilitarisation and time). For me it comes back to the N+W vs S+SE divide or otherwise known as highland/lowland split

[Jim Webster]

it would obviously depend on the level of Romanitas (a combination of the level of urbanity, demilitarisation and time). For me it comes back to the N+W vs S+SE divide or otherwise known as highland/lowland split

Apparently, or so I was told by an archaeologist, the highland lowland split may not have been as pronounced as people used to think
When they did rescue archaeology with the work on the A1(M) etc, they kept finding Roman civilian stuff in 'the military zone'. So began to wonder whether the lack of Romanitas was more due to the lack of digging.
Certainly we have found 3rd century Roman pottery which is in Herriot Watt university and according to the books, the Romans weren't really here

[Erpingham]

Apparently, or so I was told by an archaeologist, the highland lowland split may not have been as pronounced as people used to think

It is always a risk that our distribution plans are just showing where we haven't looked   However, I thought there was more to the zone thing than just material culture - that the "military zone" was administered differently?  Do we have civilian towns, or just vici (is that the correct plural?) 

[Imperial Dave]

good points both. Obviously things are never straight forward. On balance it appears that the lowlands are more productive from an agricultural perspective and so possibly more 'developed' (a relative term) than the more highland/militarised zones. However, where the army goes, a whole industry dedicated to servicing it follows. High status houses in the militarised zones could be for important people and or farming grandees just probably less of them than in the lowland areas

[Jim Webster]

good points both. Obviously things are never straight forward. On balance it appears that the lowlands are more productive from an agricultural perspective and so possibly more 'developed' (a relative term) than the more highland/militarised zones. However, where the army goes, a whole industry dedicated to servicing it follows. High status houses in the militarised zones could be for important people and or farming grandees just probably less of them than in the lowland areas

They've found a lot of farms growing grain for the legions in Cumbria, (or at least arable in the Roman period) at higher altitudes than we'd normally bother with grain now

[Imperial Dave]

the highland zones werent agriculture free of course and the question on yields would come into play to a certain extent. Interesting aside although we have travelled agricultural yields a fair bit in the past

[Imperial Dave]

and of course interestingly there were several potential 'cataclysmic' climate events in and around the 6th Century although possibly too 'late' for Arthur. Having said that, such events and cooling/wetting of the climate in teh 6th could have been the final nail in the coffin of many post Roman polities

[Anton]

the highland zones werent agriculture free of course and the question on yields would come into play to a certain extent. Interesting aside although we have travelled agricultural yields a fair bit in the past

You might find the introduction to the dig report here interesting.  Good quality arable in an upland setting.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yl3JDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT729&lpg=PT729&dq=the+expulsion+of+the+deissi&source=bl&ots=_mQNt3P5eA&sig=ACfU3U3fNT9gi-BUFd3OBvup3gGfgzBOmg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjiwaqRwIHpAhUHXsAKHT7mDlcQ6AEwDXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=the%20expulsion%20of%20the%20deissi&f=false

[Jim Webster]

the highland zones werent agriculture free of course and the question on yields would come into play to a certain extent. Interesting aside although we have travelled agricultural yields a fair bit in the past

You might find the introduction to the dig report here interesting.  Good quality arable in an upland setting.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yl3JDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT729&lpg=PT729&dq=the+expulsion+of+the+deissi&source=bl&ots=_mQNt3P5eA&sig=ACfU3U3fNT9gi-BUFd3OBvup3gGfgzBOmg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjiwaqRwIHpAhUHXsAKHT7mDlcQ6AEwDXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=the%20expulsion%20of%20the%20deissi&f=false

There is a lot of evidence of cereal production at quite high altitudes in North Cumbria, as the valley bottoms were often impassable bog