I am wading through lots of references currently with regards to the origins of the Gewisse (Gewissae/Gewissei) and also the Hwicce (Hwicca).
Some scholars interpret the Gewisse as a sub group of the West Saxons occupying/taking over large areas of the Thames valley from Oxford through to Gloucestershire. Others have the Gewisse as mixed race political/ideological unit of peoples possibly containing Irish, British as well as "Saxon" elements. Further to this there are inferences that Vortigern may have been ruler of the Gewisse at one point and that Cerdic (Ceretic, Caradog) also assumes leadership of the group later. The Gewisse are implicated/involved in the battle of Dyrham in 577AD and possibly that of Fethan Leag in 584AD.
With regards to the Hwicce, the references are more obscure but it is stated that they occupy the area around Worcestershire and Gloucestershire and are a mixed race of Saxons and British peoples. The Anglo Saxon Chronicle states that they are separate from the West Saxons around the turn of the 7th century
What others have suggested either by etymology, or the fact that much of the geographical area of "operations" appears to be quite similar is that the Gewisse and the Hwicce are either the same group or very closely related.
What I am trying to do is find some good references to look into this in more detail and I would beg others to recommend any of merit to me.
For what its worth my current thinking (based upon what I have read - translations of primary sources and from secondary sources I'm afraid) is thus:
The Gewisse are a Late Roman military unit based or operating around Gloucestershire and the Thames Valley in the 4th Century probably originally Germanic in origin although there is a hint of a suggestion of an Irish connection
In the 5th Century they have have begun to intermingle with the British population but retain a strong Germanic and military identity and are used as professional soldiers by a succession of sub Roman leaders including possibly the ethereal Vortigern
Later they are attached to a specific leader called Cerdic (possibly British in origin) who uses them to create a kingdom in the Gloucestershire/Worcestershire/Oxfordshire area
They are present at the battle of Dyrham in 577AD (a victory) and probably Fethan Leag in 584AD (possibly a defeat or a costly victory)
Afterwards they are put under pressure by the Mercian expansion of the late 6th and early 7th Century and become a sub kingdom of the Mercians and become refered to as the Hwicce. At this point they are confined to Gloucestershire and Worcestershire and border the kingdoms of Gwent/Glywysing/Ergyng and Powys
What say you good people?
Not something I know much about, but are you aware of this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0719080681/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=103612307) and this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Tribe-Witches-Religion-Dobunni/dp/1842173197)?
Thanks Duncan, much appreciated.
The first is already on order :) but I hadnt spotted the 2nd book you mention so thanks for that. I might get hold of that as well.
My eyes are a bit bug eyed at the minute with cross referencing lots of sources hence the call for help! 8)
If you've checked Duncan's suggested printed references, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot more online, although "Gewisse" seems a lot less popular than "Hwicce" as a tribal name from this period among the Internet sources (plus there's Google's irritating tendency to want to translate "Gewisse" into "Certain", because obviously, modern English-speakers can't cope with occasional proper nouns in foreign languages...).
However, I did come across this site:
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/EnglandHwicce.htm
which has a useful summary of Hwicce's "history" that isn't Wikipedia, with links to additional features, explanations and a basic map of Anglo-Saxon Britain.
Hi Alastair, thanks for this. I had found the article you refer to as well and found it really useful and would direct others to take a squint at it as its a pretty good summary + interpretations
As you put it, Gewisse is a less frequently described tribal name than the Hwicce and this may fit in with my loose "hypothesis" that the Gewisse were a political or cultural grouping rather than a geographical or genetically related grouping (mind you that could be said for a lot of wandering Germanic groups at this time!). They also "predate" the Hwicce and by the time the Hwicce are refered to they have put down their "roots" are are more tribal and fixed in nature and location
If the continuity of territory and religion from the Dobunni to the Hwicce, suggested in the Tribe of Witches book, is convincing - and I don't know if it is, I'll be interested in what you make of the book - then it suggests that the Hwicce are either a simple continuation of the Romano-British civitas, in which case they probably have nothing to do with the Gewissae; or else are the Dobunni taken over wholesale "under new management", in which case they might.
That's a good point re the Dobunni to Hwicce proposal as laid out in the book you highlighted. I will be interested to review the argument for that as well. All the information I have viewed so far (which to be fair is thin) tends to support the Hwicce being a mix of Sub Roman and Germanic peoples and were clearly "different" enough to be referred to in their own right away from the normal West Saxon and later Mercian groupings
Something that sticks in my mind from a while back.
There was a settlement of federate Germanics around Dorchester. It was put there to defend the frontier of one of the civitates against those to the East. Those and a mixing with locals created the original core of the West Saxons who then projected their power down into Hampshire, incorporating the Jutes who had settled on the coast and pushing back the Britons.
The Hwicce might be a Western projection of this group. I think its covered in that book 'Ceawlin'.
One other point, there was a suggestion that the laws of Wessex that give a reduced wergild which was thought to be for Welshmen, might in fact be a reduced wergild for laets, people of Germanic origin who were in groups that had served, for land, under the British and had then transferred their obligation to the new conquerors.
Roy
Quote from: Holly on March 18, 2014, 04:49:21 PM.... clearly "different" enough to be referred to in their own right away from the normal West Saxon and later Mercian groupings
But so are a lot of small peoples in the West Midlands/Marches area - Magonsaetan, Wreocensaetan, Westerna and so on, known from the
Tribal Hidage and elsewhere. The "normal" Wessex/Mercia division may be quite late.
Quote from: aligern on March 18, 2014, 05:06:33 PM
Something that sticks in my mind from a while back.
There was a settlement of federate Germanics around Dorchester. It was put there to defend the frontier of one of the civitates against those to the East. Those and a mixing with locals created the original core of the West Saxons who then projected their power down into Hampshire, incorporating the Jutes who had settled on the coast and pushing back the Britons.
The Hwicce might be a Western projection of this group. I think its covered in that book 'Ceawlin'.
One other point, there was a suggestion that the laws of Wessex that give a reduced wergild which was thought to be for Welshmen, might in fact be a reduced wergild for laets, people of Germanic origin who were in groups that had served, for land, under the British and had then transferred their obligation to the new conquerors.
Roy
Thanks Roy, The Gewisse/Hwicce indeed have elements of what you point out above refered to by several sources. It would make sense and be consistent with where Laeti or at least Foederati might be positioned to help with defence of the South. One thread I followed suggested that "Vortigern" was a leader or Dux of the Gewisse and based in that area (so possibly by deduction Count of the Saxon Shore?). If that were true it would place a loyal band of professional soldiers in the employ/control of a major (although still not wholly tangible) protagonist at the time of the supposed Adventus Saxonum. It would then make sense that he invited more Germanic additonal troops at some point in time.....?
If Vortigern loses out to (eventually) an ambitious leader such as Cerdic (who is assumed to have some British ancestry) it could be the prelude to West Saxon expansion and thus "transplanting of the Gewisse/Hwicce to the "final" area around Gloucester/Worcestershire
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 18, 2014, 05:20:16 PM
Quote from: Holly on March 18, 2014, 04:49:21 PM.... clearly "different" enough to be referred to in their own right away from the normal West Saxon and later Mercian groupings
But so are a lot of small peoples in the West Midlands/Marches area - Magonsaetan, Wreocensaetan, Westerna and so on, known from the Tribal Hidage and elsewhere. The "normal" Wessex/Mercia division may be quite late.
This is true Duncan and I had forgotten (!!!) the Tribal Hidage in terms of Gemanic/Saxon groupings as you quite rightly point out. I will read a little bit more into souch groupings as general backdrop to my research.
Bringing this thread back from the dead: I've just stumbled across http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/25802/7/Coates~HwicceASE~amend.pdf which suggests a British origin for the name Hwicce, making any Gewissae connection much less likely.
blimey....thanks Duncan. I'll have a read of it
It is an interesting read, thanks Duncan.
As an aside the author thinks the name of Gwynedd comes from a geographical association, I'd say it comes from Feni as Koch and Charles-Edwards conclude. Feni is an Irish term as in the perennial refrain in the Irish law texts 'the law of the Feni says'.
been reading more into this (as you do) and I am more inclined to think that the Gewisse and the Hwicce are probably (but not certainly) different sub groups from each other. Looking at some of the battle of the 6th century there is a suggestion that the Hwicce might be indeed a mixed Germanic/British group (although more British in the earlier part of the century clearly) and fought against the inhabitants of Gwent. Looking at (alleged) lesser known battles, the Book of Llandaff has a battle between 'Saxons' and 'Britons' at Tintern in Monmouthshire on the River Wye in the 6th Century. the funny thing is, the Britons are led by Tewdrig (Theoderic) a fairly Germanic sounding leader and against potentially other Britons + Germanics from Magonsaete or Hwicce possibly led by a British leader Kynan
I think they are separate groups too.
Would that be Kynan Garwyn Mab Brochfael active around 560 to 615 AD? If so Koch discusses the Magon connection and gives us Heechan to think about, no Germans with Kynan if I'm recollecting correctly but certainly incursions into what's now Wales.
Quote from: Anton on February 24, 2017, 06:04:41 AM
I think they are separate groups too.
Would that be Kynan Garwyn Mab Brochfael active around 560 to 615 AD? If so Koch discusses the Magon connection and gives us Heechan to think about, no Germans with Kynan if I'm recollecting correctly but certainly incursions into what's now Wales.
Yes (re Kynan). The only thing to discuss is that the Magon/Hwicce/Heechan(Hecani) were at some point in the 6th considered a mixed race but with the majority 'ethnicity' of being British
Not really for this thread but for the other (Camelot) but since we are on Kynan.......there is a reference in the "Trawsganu Kynan Garwyn" poem to Kynan (Cynan) having a sword with a 'stone' or ornamented sheath/scabbard
- Cledyf guein karrec
The next line says the sword is (additionally) bright hilted and better than any
- dyrngell guell ho neb
sounds a bit Arthurian to me ;)
Cynan of Cymria sounds a bit Robert E Howard to me ... ;)
Though it would be much easier for him to pull his sword from the 'stone' than for the traditional Arthurian contender in the traditional lapidary arrangement.
Apologies for interrupting. Please continue the interesting discussion.
no problem at all Patrick. Taking the aside a little further its interesting to see that the Arthurian sword in the stone legend could be from a reference to a stone adorned sword/scabbard as per the 6th century Kynan poem........
... provided it had a concealed lock and a means of release known to (or serendipitously found by) just one person out of the collected upper crust of contemporary Cymria - unless one regards the collection of unsuccessful hopefuls as subsequent bardic window-dressing. But then we would be left with: prince owns sword, prince draws it from scabbard. Apart from it being a pretty sword, we are left wondering what is so remarkable about such an action as to establish a permanent place in later legend.
I think you may be on to something, but only if the said sword and scabbard were coveted royal heirlooms with a cunning secret for release. If so, then the presence of a special (and hopefully anti-haemorrhaging) scabbard is a ready-made extra and all we need to do is to find Ron ...
indeed yes :)
am not saying it is the root of that particular aspect of the legend but it is very interesting none the less. As my Granddad used to say....no smoke without fire and all legends have a kernel of truth in there somewhere even if very very small
mind you my Granddad also used to say if its not hurting its not doing any good (well that's what he used to tell Grandma anyway)
::)
Definitely something to make a note of for possible future reference. (Cynan's sword, I mean, rather than your grandfather's advocacy of the pain threshold as a guide to progress. :) )
Back on the main subject of the thread, have Duncan's findings pretty much dissolved the likelihood of a Gewisse/Hwicce connection?
I am not 100% convinced but the evidence presented in Duncan's reply are pretty detailed. I need to do some more digging and cross referencing to live up to that standard of argument!
Good hunting! :)
The stuff I have read regarding the Gewisse does tend to point to an origin around the upper Thames area but with a high degree of probability of foederati/laeti origin AND with probable British leadership from the 5th through to possibly sometime in the 7th century. The origin of the term is not as clear cut as some would suggest but my take on it is the 'traditional' view of reliable/sure/wise. It could be an indication of the reliability of the Gewisse as foederati in a time (5/6th century) of shifting alliances. As an aside and in a very small minority, I also question the normal etymology of Wessex as an entity come from 'west saxons'. It is possible to transmute Gewisse to Wessex though as I say this is very much the minority view!
Hwicce does tend to associate with Heccan as a geographical area and phonetically they are close. Having said that there are still proponents of the Gewisse/Hwicce connection. My proposal would potentially be that the Gewisse form the rump of the West Saxons and the Hwicce )as Duncan says) form a projection of that grouping who then migrate to another area where they either adopt the tribal name for the area (around Hereford/Worcester etc) OR take a form of their original name which gets transmuted.