SoA Forums

Quote from: Jim Webster on July 27, 2024, 07:43:50 AMThis is one of the questions that keeps coming to me and I'm sure I've raised it before. Who on earth gave the order for line relief, and what was the mechanism for relaying it to the centurions?
Did the legate decide and have a signal blown so the whole front line replaced the whole second line. It would make sense in that he could spot a lull and have it happen then.
Or was it done 'locally' where two centurions communicated with each other and did it quickly when their bit of the 'front' was quiet.

Perhaps the best way to answer the question is to ask why line relief took place. My own take is that there were never lulls in the action. Once two lines engaged each other they remained engaged until one line broke. The actual fighting however was not Hollywood. Most of the time the protagonists kept up their guard, occasionally switching to sudden brief strikes before reverting to guard again. Something like like this or this. But with less action. So fatigue wasn't an issue.

What was an issue was the file leaders getting killed. The file leader was the best fighter of the file, with man behind him being second best. If the file leader's opponent could kill him and the second man then he owned the rest of the file. It would be only a matter of time before he killed them all or panicked them into running.

Another factor was the need in any form of hand-to-hand combat to be able to recoil from an enemy's blows. If you can't do this you are at a critical disadvantage. In an even fight between two lines, an outfought file leader could momentarily pull back, knowing his opponent would not follow up into the file and be surrounded on three sides. After a moment or two he could advance and renew the engagement. But if too many file leaders gave way, those still up front would also have to fall back so as not to be surrounded themselves. The entire line would hence fall back. If a hastati line began sagging in this way, it is inevitable the entire line would have to retire otherwise sections of it would be left exposed by the retreating segments. So the tribune would judge how many file leaders he had lost and how far back portions of the line were retreating and then give the order for a general retreat of the line - again, a general retreat was necessary so that the line would not fragment and be cut to pieces.

In the earlier Republic the Rorarii would move up to strengthen sections of the forward line was were giving way. No idea how exactly this was executed. Rorare means to refresh or renew. Giving new strength to something without actually replacing it. Just taking up position behind outfought files shouldn't do a thing for them as the front men of the files would still be outfought. But clearly sending the Rorarii up did boost those outfought sections.

Quote from: Justin Swanton on July 27, 2024, 03:14:28 PMIn the earlier Republic the Rorarii would move up to strengthen sections of the forward line was were giving way. No idea how exactly this was executed. Rorare means to refresh or renew.

Quote from: Varro, De lingua latinarorarii dicti ab rore qui bellum committebant, ideo quod ante rorat quam pluit.

Rorarii [were those] named from the ros 'dew-drop', who started the battle, because it rorat 'sprinkles' before it really rains.

Ah, so the triarii were for those battles when they forgot to turn on the sprinklers?   

Quote from: Justin Swanton on July 27, 2024, 03:14:28 PMIf a hastati line began sagging in this way, it is inevitable the entire line would have to retire otherwise sections of it would be left exposed by the retreating segments. So the tribune would judge how many file leaders he had lost and how far back portions of the line were retreating and then give the order for a general retreat of the line - again, a general retreat was necessary so that the line would not fragment and be cut to pieces.

According to ROMAN INFANTRY TACTICS IN THE MID-REPUBLIC: A REASSESSMENT Michael J. Taylor
Abstract
This article explores two questions about the tactical mechanics of the Roman manipular legion. First, what frontages did the Roman legion field in set-piece battle? Given that Hellenistic forces deployed in standardized formations, the length of Hellenistic infantry lines can be used to calculate the opposing Roman formation. This in turn permits consideration of the nature and tactical function of the gaps between the maniples. The paper deduces that Roman legions presented fronts between 320 and 570 meters in five set-piece battles. The range of frontages suggests that modest inter-manipular gaps were maintained even as the heavy infantry lines clashed.

The problem I have with the Tribune giving orders based on "how many file leaders he had lost" is how on earth he would know?
If he's in the front rank he's too busy staying alive.
If he's in the space between first and second line, he could perhaps see the standards of various centuries falling back, or advancing, but I cannot see how on earth he would know how many men had died, never mind file leaders.



Indeed when the action could be a third or half a kilometre from him, in conditions where there could be dust or whatever he is going to struggle.
Similarly if the enemy aren't swordsmen but men with long spears or pikes, if a file leader goes down, they don't have to step forward into the gap to continue fighting, they can stay where they are and just use their spear/pike to hit the man next to the dead guy, in the front rank, who is now overwhelmed as he's facing a lot of adversaries.

(The problem with the sword fight examples is that the protagonists aren't wearing armour, carrying a damned big shield, and are hemmed in by their comrades (who might even be able to help them if they see an opening.)

The originals would also be using a shorter sword with less emphasis on the point and a damned sight better edge)

Quote from: Justin Swanton on July 27, 2024, 03:14:28 PMSo the tribune would judge how many file leaders he had lost and how far back portions of the line were retreating and then give the order for a general retreat of the line - again, a general retreat was necessary so that the line would not fragment and be cut to pieces.

Throwing my two pence in here...
This would actually be nicely covered by Phil Barker's old contention that a commander would see if his men were advancing cheering, backing up nervously looking over their shoulders or breaking in panic to the rear.
So a Tribune would not need to take a headcount but merely see that a maniple was giving ground and *looked* shaky to order the next line (or part of it) to move up in support.

Quote from: Duncan Head on July 27, 2024, 04:04:45 PM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on July 27, 2024, 03:14:28 PMIn the earlier Republic the Rorarii would move up to strengthen sections of the forward line was were giving way. No idea how exactly this was executed. Rorare means to refresh or renew.

Quote from: Varro, De lingua latinarorarii dicti ab rore qui bellum committebant, ideo quod ante rorat quam pluit.

Rorarii [were those] named from the ros 'dew-drop', who started the battle, because it rorat 'sprinkles' before it really rains.

Old chestnut. The only instance where the rorarii are mentioned in a specific battle is Vesuvius, where their role seems very much supporting heavy infantry - in the role of heavy infantry:

QuoteAt the same time the Romans — their spirits relieved of religious fears —pressed on as though the signal had just then for the first time been given, and delivered a fresh attack; for the rorarii were running out between the antepilani and were joining their strength to that of the hastati and the principles, and the triarii, kneeling on the right knee, were waiting till the consul signed to them to rise." - Livy, History: 8.9.1-14

It seems they mutated into the role of light infantry before eventually being absorbed into the velites.

We covered this before (or rather Patrick did) in the thread on the Proto-Manipular legion.

Quote from: Chilliarch on July 29, 2024, 04:52:13 AM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on July 27, 2024, 03:14:28 PMSo the tribune would judge how many file leaders he had lost and how far back portions of the line were retreating and then give the order for a general retreat of the line - again, a general retreat was necessary so that the line would not fragment and be cut to pieces.

Throwing my two pence in here...
This would actually be nicely covered by Phil Barker's old contention that a commander would see if his men were advancing cheering, backing up nervously looking over their shoulders or breaking in panic to the rear.
So a Tribune would not need to take a headcount but merely see that a maniple was giving ground and *looked* shaky to order the next line (or part of it) to move up in support.

I would guess that the tribune could see the centurions going down - their distinctive helmet crests would make that obvious. That plus a sagging line would tell him time to pull back and send the next line in.

Quote from: Justin Swanton on July 29, 2024, 11:31:51 AM

Quote from: Duncan Head on July 27, 2024, 04:04:45 PM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on July 27, 2024, 03:14:28 PMIn the earlier Republic the Rorarii would move up to strengthen sections of the forward line was were giving way. No idea how exactly this was executed. Rorare means to refresh or renew.

Quote from: Varro, De lingua latinarorarii dicti ab rore qui bellum committebant, ideo quod ante rorat quam pluit.

Rorarii [were those] named from the ros 'dew-drop', who started the battle, because it rorat 'sprinkles' before it really rains.

Old chestnut. The only instance where the rorarii are mentioned in a specific battle is Vesuvius, where their role seems very much supporting heavy infantry - in the role of heavy infantry:

While Varro is by no means perfect, I would prefer his etymology to one you've made up.

Quote from: Duncan Head on July 29, 2024, 12:53:41 PM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on July 29, 2024, 11:31:51 AM

Quote from: Duncan Head on July 27, 2024, 04:04:45 PM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on July 27, 2024, 03:14:28 PMIn the earlier Republic the Rorarii would move up to strengthen sections of the forward line was were giving way. No idea how exactly this was executed. Rorare means to refresh or renew.

Quote from: Varro, De lingua latinarorarii dicti ab rore qui bellum committebant, ideo quod ante rorat quam pluit.

Rorarii [were those] named from the ros 'dew-drop', who started the battle, because it rorat 'sprinkles' before it really rains.

Old chestnut. The only instance where the rorarii are mentioned in a specific battle is Vesuvius, where their role seems very much supporting heavy infantry - in the role of heavy infantry:

While Varro is by no means perfect, I would prefer his etymology to one you've made up.

I won't argue with Varro , but it seems the rorarii could multi-task despite their name.

Edit: actually, thinking about about it, Varro's etymology seems strange. Sprinkling with dew as an image of skirmishers doing some light skirmishing is distinctly odd. Rorare is a beneficial activity which skirmishing is not. Benefitting one's own side rather than degrading the other seems more in line with the sense of the word. My 2c which - since I'm a nobody - feel free to ignore.

A quick look at the etymology of the word online gives this

The fight was commenced by the Rorarii, so called because the light missiles which they sprinkled among the foe were like the drops which are the forerunners of the thunder shower

William Smith, D.C.L., LL.D.:
A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, John Murray, London, 1875.

So, if you put less emphasis on the dew and more on the Romans having a word meaning "light rain before a storm", Varro (or Festus' epitome) makes sense.  Doesn't necessarily make it right, but does make it a Roman as opposed to modern interpretation, as Duncan points out.

There is quite a lot of argument for the term being derived from running in academic and dictionary circles online.  This seems to need more advanced knowledge of linguistics than I possess.  This would fit with them being described as rorarii velox perhaps?

Quote from: Erpingham on July 29, 2024, 03:32:09 PMA quick look at the etymology of the word online gives this

The fight was commenced by the Rorarii, so called because the light missiles which they sprinkled among the foe were like the drops which are the forerunners of the thunder shower

William Smith, D.C.L., LL.D.:
A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, John Murray, London, 1875.

So, if you put less emphasis on the dew and more on the Romans having a word meaning "light rain before a storm", Varro (or Festus' epitome) makes sense.  Doesn't necessarily make it right, but does make it a Roman as opposed to modern interpretation, as Duncan points out.

There is quite a lot of argument for the term being derived from running in academic and dictionary circles online.  This seems to need more advanced knowledge of linguistics than I possess.  This would fit with them being described as rorarii velox perhaps?

In pretty much all the dictionaries I can find (including the hard copy one I have) rorare is given only a literal meaning: to provide moisture, to fall in drops, to drip, to sprinkle, to moisten with drops, etc. Wictionary also give the figurative sense of to revive, to renew, but I'm not sure what that's based on. So it's up for grabs whether the rorarii got their term from being strengtheners of their own men or just scatterers of javelins on the enemy. But they certainly seem to have fulfilled both roles.

Wiktionary only gives the meaning "renew" or "refresh" in modern Italian as far as I can see.  At a guess, it's originally a poetic form from refreshing rain or dew.  None of the other online dictionaries give this as a Latin meaning, though, given the Roman's poetic tendencies, it's possible somebody somewhere said it.  Safer perhaps, like Varro, to stick with the primary meaning.

Quote from: Erpingham on July 29, 2024, 05:07:34 PMWiktionary only gives the meaning "renew" or "refresh" in modern Italian as far as I can see.  At a guess, it's originally a poetic form from refreshing rain or dew.  None of the other online dictionaries give this as a Latin meaning, though, given the Roman's poetic tendencies, it's possible somebody somewhere said it.  Safer perhaps, like Varro, to stick with the primary meaning.

Sure (though keeping in mind the primary sense is also used figuratively).

Taking another look at that passage from Livy, it is possible the rorarii were acting as skirmishers at Vesuvius. How exactly were they "joining their strength to that of the hastati and the principles"? Just thickening the line wouldn't achieve anything as that does nothing for the front rank fighters. But if the rorarii supplied rear-rank missile support that would help the men in front. So Varro ties in nicely with Livy. Are we all friends?

 I cannot vouch for Italy, but here Dew is entirely different to rain.
You have have dew on the grass in the morning and it tells you very little about how the day is going to progress

If the name is related to Dew, then I would suggest that it happens before everything starts, and might happen  even if there is no battle (rain)

I will weigh in with my own etymological spin...

I agree that the term is likely figurative.  Like the morning dew evaporates when the temperature rises, lightly-armed rorarii tend to "evaporate" once the battle heats up.  Using "ros" as a root suggests these troops were light with little substance.

Gotta love the Romans and their use of language.