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I am making up some house rules for my games so I would like to know how many pila a Roman in a cohort would carry or a Hastati or Principes? I am thinking of allowing them to fire only once but want to know if they carried more than one pila? The reason I'm asking this is because when facing a cavalry opponent the Romans where supposed to keep their pila to withstand the charge as spearmen. At least this is my understanding of it. This suggests only one pila but I am not sure so hence the question...
John

Polybios says that 2 were carried in his description.

Thank you so much, I will use a counter to mark the first volley and then the second will be the last...
John

That might be a false premise. Unless the enemy broke before or immediately on contact, quite possible, even likely, that both pila would have been thrown in quick succession. In wargames terms, a single round of combat.  Especially if you are using line relief, where your initial intent with hastati is a really nasty initial shock knowing that if that fails, the principes can have another go.

There are various ways to construct Roman infantry combat - it seems a popular discussion point not just among wargamers but also professional historians.  A quick search will find many of those ideas have been discussed before on the forum.  One thing I picked up from these earlier discussions is the Roman army was not a one trick pony and how they fought one enemy might not be the same as how they fought the next.

I think David is right that, once a legionary unit has come to hand strokes, pila are no longer a part of the future of the fight.  The Romans have either thrown them all or ditched any remaining to free them to focus on sword and shield work. So, you may not need two distinct pilum phases.  However, if you have a missile exchange phase in the manner of the  "pilum skirmishing" debate Zhmodikov started, you may wish to mark supplies separately. 

An useful discussion by Brett Devereaux which post-dates our conversations on the forum about all this but summarises a lot of what we said in them is here.  If you have the time search out some of the stuff on the forum - lots of papers were linked, sources were quoted and various opinions were expressed.

Nice site Anthony

I don't know if there's any evidence for or against it actually being done, but there's nothing forcing all men in a formation to throw their pila at the same time, so a unit of legionaries could launch three or more volleys if they weren't all full-strength.

(In early Byzantine times, doctrine called for rear ranks to throw their spears while the front rankers retain their for close combat while on the defensive. Perhaps not something you want to do with pila that are more dedicated missile weapons, but illustrates the potential for partial volleys.)

Actually, do we know pila were thrown in volleys at all, as opposed to each man throwing his when he thought best? I vaguely seem to recall Caesar implying that pila-throwing went on for some considerable time at at least one battle?

Of course, if you go for the later legionaries you also have to think about where the martiobarbuli and javelins come into the game mechanisms.  WRG 6^th Ed allowed legionaries to use everything they had; darts, javelins, pila, golf bag, a back rank of archers and they could fight in wedge and foam at the mouth like a berserker for good measure. People hold their own opinions on how historical or otherwise it might have been, but it was great fun watching one of these units plough through a pike phalanx frontally without breaking step.

This Ed Smith cartoon from the period sums things up nicely.

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Thank you for the discussion. I will give my units one round of pila throwing before contact as I think this is the most accurate. Pila are strong in the games I am thinking about. I don't want them to act as skirmishers and wear their opponents down before contact as that is not how they fought. At least not in Polybius, Livy or Caesar. Thank you for your comments...
John

Quote from: Nick Harbud on October 02, 2024, 03:33:30 PMOf course, if you go for the later legionaries you also have to think about where the martiobarbuli and javelins come into the game mechanisms.  WRG 6^th Ed allowed legionaries to use everything they had; darts, javelins, pila, golf bag, a back rank of archers and they could fight in wedge and foam at the mouth like a berserker for good measure. People hold their own opinions on how historical or otherwise it might have been, but it was great fun watching one of these units plough through a pike phalanx frontally without breaking step.

This Ed Smith cartoon from the period sums things up nicely.

You cannot view this attachment.

Ahhhhh...the heady memories

Are you actually attempting to model pila ?

Do you extend that to other non romans with similar recorded capability?

If you are considering ammunition (2), do you also consider the stated ammunition carried by velites (7) also?

There are very conflicting views on how pila were used - whole formation single volley, front row only as part of melee impact, rear rank overhead , alternate ranks one at a time, irregular individual, no doubt others too.

Might it not be safer to not give romans this written record only advantage?

Or declare just some mysterious bonus on first combat for certain viscous melee types - parallel to impact charges for hairy tweed wearing types?

Just checking out the rules I have on pila. I don't like to change them unless for a very good reason but some armies are too strong with multiple pila throws with high impact. Think I will limit them to one throw...
John

Yes but what and what does that represent?

Why don't other javelin or htw armed troops also get it, why only one?

Quote from: Aetius on October 03, 2024, 09:38:09 AMThank you for the discussion. I will give my units one round of pila throwing before contact as I think this is the most accurate. Pila are strong in the games I am thinking about. I don't want them to act as skirmishers and wear their opponents down before contact as that is not how they fought. At least not in Polybius, Livy or Caesar. Thank you for your comments...
John

Of course, Polybios, Livy, Caesar, etc. are what those who see a more extended missile exchange base their views on.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 04, 2024, 11:10:59 AM

Quote from: Aetius on October 03, 2024, 09:38:09 AMThank you for the discussion. I will give my units one round of pila throwing before contact as I think this is the most accurate. Pila are strong in the games I am thinking about. I don't want them to act as skirmishers and wear their opponents down before contact as that is not how they fought. At least not in Polybius, Livy or Caesar. Thank you for your comments...
John

At the battle of Sentinum 295BC where the Romans fought Gauls and Samnites, in a pause in the battle where the Samnites had fled and the Romans reorganised to attack the Gauls, Livy mentions the Romans sending men out to pick up javelins etc off the battlefield

Whilst his account might be fanciful, I think we can assume that collecting missiles in gaps in the action seemed reasonable to his readers
Of course, Polybios, Livy, Caesar, etc. are what those who see a more extended missile exchange base their views on.