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it might be useful to put some thoughts on this down, and get some counter opinions.

we have confused the harassing effect of javelin skirmishers (who let us not forget are mostly used to cover the battle line deployment, not to engage in the actual main battle itself), with a kill shot.
and extrapolated that to cover all uses of javelins as a killing weapon.

1. shields and armour work
2. thrust disipates
3. plunging fire is pointless.
4. run up and back pull
5. you can see the thing and dodge it / block it with your shield

1. There is loads of evidence of this, the only exception is Pila at short (under 25m) range and then it doesn't kill the man unless he holds the shield close to his chest, it just sticks in the shield and makes it unusable.

2. all this stuff about maximum distance and range ignores that after the human powered thrust has dissipated, you are just passing sticks around, with no chance of a meaningful impact. after a comparatively short range, the human power behind the throw is gone and you are relying on gravity, hardly a killing power.

3. unaimed indirect throwing i.e. overhead throwing can never have any human powered thrust behind it.  even if you are 'aiming' at a target static and deep enough to be confident of hitting something, by throwing it up, and relying on gravity to power the actual impact blow, you are guaranteeing nothing more than harassing impacts, and they are almost always wearing helmets anyway.

4. you need a lot of space forward and behind you to actually throw a javelin, it cannot be done from a rank based formation without greatly endangering your own people.  javelins are not blunt at the back, and to get the power for a proper thrust you also need momentum behind it from a run up of at least a half dozen meters. none of this is possible other than for the front rank man throwing as he charges in.

5. self evidently - even the ancient sources themselves talk of heroes sidestepping javelins thrown at them.

in short, if you are in skirmish order, you have the space to run about throwing javelins at other lightly armed boys - but other than minor grazes or a very unlucky choice on when to duck and when to weave, its never going to actually inflict a serious wound.  this seems to me one of the best reasons to put young boys into the skirmish line, and get them used to a battle environment in comparative safety.

javelin fire should be treated as a nuisance effect, as a preparatory impact on morale, and in the case of the most effective short range example (Pila), as a way to disable the front rank shields as you hit them with your sword, not as a killing weapon of itself. 
Pila also have the advantage that you are actively aiming at the big shield in front of you, not at the small head behind it moving about a bit with a helmet on the top half.

There is great value in the nuisance impact of having to deal with incoming javelins, of having to block with shield, of worrying about a thing buzzing about your head - its not a useless weapon even if it cannot kill you - but it is not a killing weapon.

we should reconsider how rules handle all javelin forms of combat.  the idea that only a kill matters is wrong.

Love the '...just passing sticks around' comment 😁 . All valid stuff 👍👍

 

Really interesting thread...!

I think we have to start with the premise that javelins had some effect or people wouldn't keep using them. If having boys capering in front of an enemy unit using harsh language was as effective, I think we would have seen more of it.

So I think we can assume that with skirmishing javelin fire, you degrade an enemy unit more effectively that by shouting abuse (hardly a high bar.)

I also think we may have to distinguish between skirmish and mass. With the pilum, I have always had the impression that at least one rank of close(ish) order infantry threw at once. Perhaps more. So this is very different to the skirmishers. So would a Samnite unit facing off against a Roman unit (or other javelin armed 'heavy infantry' expect more from their javelins than when skirmishers throw them.

Plunging fire may not be that effective, but if you get enough of it, the target unit is going to have to act, men will be injured. Not necessarily killed, but a dead man just lies there, a wounded man gives his mate an excuse to leave the battle line and help him to the rear.
Also if troops stop and raise their shields to block these descending javelins they're not braced and ready for the throwers who continued their run forward and turned it into a charge.

So I think that we are right to look at the effectiveness of javelin skirmishers. But then they did make a mess of the Athenians in Aetolia, perhaps because troops who can make no effective response and just have to take it, eventually get demoralised.
So Heavy infantry in a battle line, advancing (or soon to be advancing) and sweeping the rough children in front of them are going to regard them as an irritation.
Heavy infantry who are stuck and just have to put up with the incoming javelins without any reasonable hope of responding or achieving anything are in a very different position.

Quote from: Jim Webster on October 26, 2024, 09:52:03 AMI think we have to start with the premise that javelins had some effect or people wouldn't keep using them.

I think this is usually a good point to start with.  Rock throwing also took place - again not an obvious lethal weapon, but certainly not recommended to be struck on the head by.  So nuisance and injury would be worthwhile.

We might also reflect on the English experience in Ireland in the 16th century. Irish kern were primarily javelin armed and were noted as being well practiced and accurate. The English felt their armour was effective against Irish javelins but thought the big risk was to their horses.

I can't comment on the killing element but a 1-2lb iron tipped projectile hitting you in partial free fall is going to hurt

It'll be well over 1000 newtons of force

Would not the point about plunging "fire" apply equally to arrows?

To a degree although the forces involved are different with arrows being much lighter. "Plunging fire" is going to hurt more with a javelin in principle but would depend on the circumstances eg height of fall, weight and speed on impact

We might pause to think what we mean by "plunging fire".  Shooting/throwing from a distance will produce shots which are on a curved trajectory - they will be falling onto the target to some extent.  Plenty of work on archery has been done to show there remains a dangerous amount of energy in arrows that are landing in this way.  It is hard to see why javelins would be different, especially if they are falling point first.  Fatal accidents and serious injuries still occassionally occur with sporting javelins today, which suggests their ancient ancestors would also be dangerous in similar circumstances.

If, however, by plunging we mean things shot on a deliberately high trajectory to drop at short range (e.g. from the back of a formation to drop into an enemy formation your unit is in contact with) we may be in different territory.

Although I don't see the point of chucking much above 45 degrees which means some kinetic energy is preserved before it starts dropping...

The idea that the target can see an inbound javelin and dodge or block with shield is potentially fallacious.  Someone in the front rank might be able to see it, but if it is coming in at head height, men in the second or later ranks probably do not have a chance to see it.  Even more so if it is coming in at something of a high angle.  As for blocking it, that depends on the type of shield and the manner of carriage, not to mention speed of reaction.  A phalangite with a shield on straps and both hands on his pike is probably not going to be able to do much against a missile, as opposed to nudging his shield to deflect a hostile pike or thrusting spear.  A small or light shield might be mobile enough, but the shock of stopping a javelin impact is going to be painful even if it succeeds in deflecting.

Arrian, re the Alans, may just be going for a rhetorical flourish, but he talks of the "unbearable" barrage of javelins and arrows (which he thinks have a reasonable chance of stopping the Alans in their tracks before they even reach his line) causing confusion amongst the horses, and destruction amongst their riders (Campbell's translation).  That would suggest that whilst he regards the missiles as less destructive in an outright manner on the horses, he does think they are going to hurt and kill the blokes astride them.

And do not forget that almost none of Arrian's troops have a clear, flat shot at the Alans, as the front rank are retaining their pila to thrust, and everyone else is throwing pila and javelins, or shooting arrows, over the front rank's heads, from the second through to ninth rank of the legionary line, which suggests a certain degree of high trajectory and certainly not much aiming.

Arrian has his provincial militia heavy infantry throwing rocks...

Oh, and there is no indication whatsoever that Arrian's ranks two to eight are running to throw their pila and javelins; quite the opposite, they are maintaining a close formation, with the front rank blocking any forward run, and the archers formed up as a ninth rank blocking them in behind.  So probably no more than a pace or two in the file depth for each rank in which to move when lobbing their missiles.

May also include "what are javelin-armed  skirmishers for?" There's a need, requirement or necessity to have some skirmishers and javelins are cheap to make, easy to use and if you carry a couple the enemy thinks you are soldierly, not baggage.

Agreed on the Arrian, as he thinks the volume of missiles worth throwing. Maybe their hit rate was low, but every enemy soldier is thinking "it might be me or my beloved horse that gets hit", so maybe deterrent value to nullify the enemy's number one weapon, their ferocious charge.

The late Roman armies changed to an emphasis on shooty weapons because a prolonged missile exchange would favour them over the often shooty-less, no armour, no helmet barbarians. Wounded individuals may be just as ineffective as the dead ones. But are we back to when is a javelin a combat spear to hold onto or a heavier throwing spear, and is this because the latter are dual-purpose, rather than a one-throw-only weapon?

And where do Alexander's Agrianes fit in? Javelin-armed light infantry who went everywhere he did - must have been something special about what they offered? Maybe they were just angry at always being picked for Alexander's  'death or glory' missions and someone was going to pay?

I'm not saying that the general is disappointed when every javelin throw is not a kill, but maybe they aren't meant to even though they are designed for it? Javelins have been around for a long time.

If nothing else it slows you down, makes you fearful and disrupts your formation.

Re the killing power effect....that would take a bit of research and mathematical deductions. I've started looking at kinetic energy stuff for starters

 

Quote from: Imperial Dave on October 27, 2024, 06:07:51 AMI've started looking at kinetic energy stuff for starters

7.62x39mm bullets only weigh 18 grammes.  A couple of decades ago, we used to keep a set of X-Ray prints at the embassy in Baghdad of such a projectile buried in the top of a victim's skull (he had fortunately survived thanks to excellent US surgeons).  It was the result of the Iraqi security forces celebrating a football victory, firing hundreds of thousands of round into the air at night.  What goes up, must come down.  The rounds were spent, their velocity thanks to gravity alone, but were still potentially very lethal, and the point of the X-Rays was to impress upon newcomers the need to, at a minimum, wear their helmet, and far more importantly, get under hard cover when the football was on...

My point (pun intended) is that any projectile coming down on your head or shoulders is dangerous.  Helmets might help, but a javelin with a wooden shaft adding to the weight of the weapon's head is still going to knock one silly, even if your bronze or iron helmet is not actually penetrated.

Agreed. Kinetic energy is very lethal when you get the mix of sharp things with weight falling from a great height...