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Quote from: Patrick Waterson on July 16, 2012, 05:12:16 PM
And here it is:

The spear of the velites [grosphon belos] has a wooden haft of about two cubits, and about a finger's breadth in thickness; its head is a span long, hammered fine, and sharpened to such an extent that it becomes bent the first time it strikes, and cannot be used by the enemy to hurl back; otherwise the weapon would be available for both sides alike.

Indeed; looks quite determinate to me. Length, construction, use to throw - what more do we need?

Quote from: Patrick Waterson on July 14, 2012, 10:55:47 AM
Kontos – a long, heavy cavalry lance, often with a point at each end.  Latin contus.

Originally - as cited in LSJ as early as Homer - the word just meant a pole, or "punting-pole" (elsewhere I've seen "bargepole"). Not sure about the "point at each end" - that seems to me more characteristic of the Macedonian xyston.

As with so many other spear-words, kontos gets used loosely for other sorts of spear; by Arrian in his Array against the Alans for the spear carried by the first four legionary ranks - possibly but not certainly pila from their "thin iron shanks"; and by Strabo for the spears of the Kushites of Meroe.

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Logkhe – a long javelin used for distant shooting by peltasts and skirmishers; occasionally also a melee weapon.

I'm not sure that the longkhe is ever described as being used by troops explicitly called peltasts, is it? By "peltast-equivalents", certainly; by Iranian light cavalry in Successor armies; by the rear ranks of Arrian's legionaries, and many others.

It might be worth saying that the word is used as the Greek equivalent of the Latin lancea (as by Arrian) - they look as if they're related.

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Palta – a throwing spear used by horsemen, derived from a hunting-spear.  Dimensions unknown.  Xenophon uses it to designate Persian cavalry weapons. [Note: not to be confused with pelta, a type of light shield used by peltasts.]

Palton, surely - palta is the plural.  Where do you get "derived from a hunting-spear"?

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Sarissa – the Macedonian pike, originally made of two shafts of cornel-wood joined by a central sleeve, c.21' long and counterweighted.  Used by infantry and some cavalry (sarissaphoroi).

"Originally made of two shafts joined by a sleeve" is modern speculation, originally by Andronikos c.1970 based on occasional finds of such tubes with finds of sarisa-fittings. It is not mentioned in any ancient source; Theophrastus (History of Plants 3.12.2) says that the tallest male cornel trees are "about twelve cubits, the length of the longest sarissa", which means that the wood was available in Macedonian forests for one-piece sarisai; and both Connolly's (2000) and Sekunda's (2001) articles reject the joining-tube. I regret ever mentioning it in AMPW now. Mention it as a possibility, perhaps, but I don't think it should be put forward unconditionally, and I'd personally recommend being sceptical.

Thanks for the input, Duncan:  I have refined the following ...

Kontos - eliminated the questionable 'point at each end'.

Logkhe - inserted additional form 'longkhe' and added 'Latin lancea' and adjusted degree of definiteness in peltastic association.

Palta - adjusted to palton.  Did not think when lifting this from Cyropaedia, which is incidentally the source for hunting-spear origin.

Sarissa - two-piece sleeved sarissa relegated to the realm of 'perhaps'.  Wonder what the metal sleeves actually were.

Grosphos - adjusted for Polybius' description.

Aikhme brache - singularised (finally).

Quote from: Patrick Waterson on July 14, 2012, 10:55:47 AMContus – a heavy lance used by cavalry, especially Parthians and Sassanid (Sasanian) Persians.  Possibly used to mean 'pilum' in Arrian's Acies Contra Alanos, as most Roman infantry in that treatise are equipped with it.  Cf. Greek kontos.

The problem here is that - despite the Acies... form often used for the title - Arian was writing in Greek, hence using kontos, not contus.

Shifted that observation to 'kontos' but forgot to remove it from 'contus'.

Quote from: Patrick Waterson on July 17, 2012, 09:50:25 AM
Thanks for the input, Duncan:

You're welcome. There will be more 

QuoteSarissa - two-piece sleeved sarissa relegated to the realm of 'perhaps'.  Wonder what the metal sleeves actually were.

I don't know. One suggestion I've seen is a protective sleeve below the head, like langets on later polearms. Or maybe they had nothing to do with the sarissa-parts they were found with; or maybe just some examples were made in two pieces depending on whether enough good timber was available.

Possible additions:

To the Greek list, gaison (simply as the equivalent of Lat. gaesum); kamax; a(n)ggon (because Agathias' Greek is the source that first comes to mind)

To the Latin; verutum, martiobarbulus/mattiobarbulus/plumbata, framea, bebra; perhaps hasta longa and hasta velitaris? iaculum?

Could the sleeve associated with the sarissa enable it to be broken down for different duties?. If a soldier was expected to do guard duties in the palace that having an eight or nine foot option might make a lot of sense.
One of these ferrules was on show at the recent exhibition at the Ashmolean. It did look as though it fitted in the middle of a long spear as it was thick and heavy and you just would neither need nor want that sort of weight at the tip of a 5 metre spear. Besides which, if protection against cuts were desired the solution that the Swiss used of two thin metal strips along the shaft  would be much more practical, lighter and protecting a longer part of the wooden shaft.

Roy

Quote from: aligern on July 17, 2012, 12:50:29 PM
Could the sleeve associated with the sarissa enable it to be broken down for different duties?. If a soldier was expected to do guard duties in the palace that having an eight or nine foot option might make a lot of sense.
One of these ferrules was on show at the recent exhibition at the Ashmolean. It did look as though it fitted in the middle of a long spear as it was thick and heavy and you just would neither need nor want that sort of weight at the tip of a 5 metre spear. Besides which, if protection against cuts were desired the solution that the Swiss used of two thin metal strips along the shaft  would be much more practical, lighter and protecting a longer part of the wooden shaft.

Only if the spear was made of two pieces in the first place, which I no longer think is especially likely. And since there are suggestions that Alexander's men, at least, may have been armed with both a sarisa and a separate shorter spear, there would be no need to break the long weapon down. Finally, I remain uncertain as to how practical it would be to take such a spear apart and put it back together again,  and have it stay together, at least without the aid of a blacksmith. The tube is not very long to make a stable join - and no screw-joints.

In the same exhibition and with the ferrule was a large,weighty butt spike. It looked as though it would fit with the same sort of diameter of spear as the ferrule.
If the sleeve did not join two sections then maybe it did something for tha balance of the spear in combination with the head and the butt. Perhaps it allowed the soldier to hold the spear further back and thus to have more weight and thus length projecting from the front. That might be a way of presenting more spear points levelled to the front?
Roy

Quote from: aligern on July 17, 2012, 03:04:21 PM
In the same exhibition and with the ferrule was a large,weighty butt spike. It looked as though it would fit with the same sort of diameter of spear as the ferrule.
If the sleeve did not join two sections then maybe it did something for tha balance of the spear in combination with the head and the butt. Perhaps it allowed the soldier to hold the spear further back and thus to have more weight and thus length projecting from the front. That might be a way of presenting more spear points levelled to the front?

Sekunda argues, and I think Connolly at least in part agreed, that the sarissa tapered from a heavy buttspike to a small, conventional-sized, spearhead - the "Macedonian sarissai with their small teeth" of Grattus' Cynegetica (quoting from memory). This differs from the Andronikos/Markle version with a big buttspike and a big head, which would have a shaft of constant thick diameter throughout. If this tapering version is correct, then only the portion near the butt end would be of a diameter to fit the tube. (This approach involves re-labelling what Andronikos thought was a big sarissa-head as something else - perhaps another buttspike.) But the taper and the heavier butt would put the centre of gravity far enough back that you wouldn't need the tube to help.

The taper and the butt spike would give a position for rank one, but what about rank two? The ferrule would provide an adjustment of balance point for them?

Roy

Two more Greek spear-words:

gaison, equivalent of the Latin gaesum, used for non-Greek throwing-spears. Athenaios (273f) says that the Romans adopted the gaison from the Iberians, suggesting he used the word to mean either the pilum or the soliferreum.

kamax, originally a vine-prop or pole. Aischylos and other 5th-century dramatists use kamax for the spears of legendary Greek heroes. Xenophon (On Horsemanship 12.12) advises against using doratos kamakinou, a doru like a kamax, because it is weak and awkward to use. It is not clear whether he simply means don't use a hoplite doru on horseback, or whether as some artistic depictions suggest there was a specific long, slender cavalry spear.

Isn't there a reference to Roman cavalry changing to Greek equipment and improving their performance. Perhaps in Polybius?
Roy

Yes, well remembered, Roy: Polybius VI.25.

And their lances* too were useless in two ways: first because they were thin, and prevented their taking a good aim; and before they could get the head [epidoratida] fixed in the enemy, the lances were so shaken by the mere motion of the horse that they generally broke. Secondly, because, having no spike [sauroter] at the butt end of their lance, they only had one stroke, namely that with the spear-head [epidoratida]; and if the lance broke, what was left in their hands was entirely useless.

*dorata kata duo tropous, which seems to indicate two spear-type weapons with thongs

The whole passage goes:

The armour [kathoplisma = full range of equipment] of the cavalry is very like that in Greece. In old times they did not wear the lorica [thorax = body armour], but fought in their tunics [perizomasin = underclothing*]; the result of which was that they were prompt and nimble at dismounting and mounting again with despatch, but were in great danger at close quarters from the unprotected state of their bodies. And their lances too were useless in two ways: first because they were thin, and prevented their taking a good aim; and before they could get the head fixed in the enemy, the lances were so shaken by the mere motion of the horse that they generally broke. Secondly, because, having no spike at the butt end of their lance, they only had one stroke, namely that with the spear-head; and if the lance broke, what was left in their hands was entirely useless. Again they used to have shields [thureon] of bull's hide, just like those round cakes with a knob in the middle which are used at sacrifices, which were useless at close quarters because they were flexible rather than firm; and, when their leather shrunk and rotted from the rain, unserviceable as they were before, they then became entirely so. Wherefore, as experience showed them the uselessness of these, they lost no time in changing to the Greek fashion of arms [hoplon]: the advantages of which were, first, that men were able to deliver the first stroke of their lance-head with a good aim and effect, because the shaft from the nature of its construction was steady and not quivering; and, secondly, that they were able, by reversing the lance, to use the spike at the butt end for a steady and effective blow. And the same may be said about the Greek shields thureon]: for, whether used to ward off a blow or to thrust against the enemy, they neither give nor bend.

*the Latin 'campestria', a 'leather apron worn about the loins', also worn by wrestlers.  We may note the reference to Greek cavalry shields, albeit Polybius gives no indication of whether these are pre- or post-Tarentine.