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I could put this in one of several different fora, since it counts as "currently reading" and also maybe on figures and army building.

I've been having a discussion with David Edwards about appropriate figures for late 12th/early 13th knights, which boils down to:
- are there are any decent 28mm ranges for the period and
- to what extent are figures "portable" from other periods

The answer to the first question is basically, no. There are some figures in the Perry/Foundry "Baron's Wars" range, but these were originally one-offs done for Citadel's medieval range and they're not really consistent as a range. The same applies to Essex. BTD has a very small 3rd crusade range (7 figures). Any others?

To the second question, you can bring forward some 1st/2nd crusade figures (Perry, Gripping Beast) as wearing hand-me-down armour in the 3rd crusade. But there is little coverage for the period between the Norman conical helmet and the barrel helm of the mid 13th century.

Over this period the helmet in particular (and there are other changes, obviously, to the length of the mailcoat, use of heraldry on tunic and on horses, etc) evolves rapidly through a number of stages:
- conical nasal helm => rounded nasal helm => flat cylindrical/pot helm
- variations on face bar additions to nasal bar => introduction of face mask
- some very rare allusions to barrel helm (Richard I great seal, 1194) but that may be a primitive drawing issue rather than the actuality. It seems that the full face mask didn't become popular, even as a premium item, till around the turn of the century (maybe by the 4th crusade?).

This image from the Jungfrauenspiegel, around 1200, has men wearing what seem to be face masks:



I'd assume the 3rd crusade should have a mix of open/nasal helms based on conical/rounded/pot, and some rare occurrences of face masks (?). By Bouvines there are reports of nobles being killed by a sword through the eye slit, indicating the face mask was in wider use. William the Breton:

"Killed right in front of the King was Stephen of Longchamp, valorous and loyal knight of total dedication; he was struck by a knife through the eye hole of his helmet all the way to the brain." http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/SOURCES/bouvines5.htm

So, what interests me is, when you get to Bouvines and Muret, to what extent had these various armour styles become prevalent? What would one expect the mix to be?

In this example from the (1240s) Maciejowski Bible most of the types are represented: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Morgan_Bible_10r.jpg (those who could previously afford a mask by now were going for the full barrel, everyone else was still in the cheap stuff).

Also, at Muret, what is the technology gap between the French crusaders (fighting techniques developed in Outremer) and the Aragonese (fighting techniques developed in Iberia, against what would seem lighter opposition - Pedro II's son Jaime, in his memoirs, basically says the French outclassed the Aragonese for technique, as if this was the first time they had qualified for European competition).

I have btw just acquired a copy of Guerreros y Batallas 'La Batalla de Muret 1213", which is a kind of Spanish Osprey-like book. I am making my way through the Spanish text, but if you buy these books for the pictures I would warn that the illustrations are some way far from being Angus McBride (in general they seem to be retouched images with details added). It also includes a picture of the Haymarket, Leicester statue of Simon de Montfort. Wrong Simon de Montfort. Not sure if my Spanish efforts are going to pay off.

Interesting. In most illustrative sources knights are all shown wearing very similar armour.  On monumental brasses knights are almost always shown in the latest fashion of armour.  Both sources might be criticised , but it does suggest that the top people wore the latest fashion. Even in sources where variety is shown I think I am right that it might be a different hat or helmet , but the basic body armour is the same for all knights in a picture
I also suggest that, though knights might  wear varied headgear  the top people have such things as face mask helmets and that develops into the barrel helm and sergeants are not shown with these.  So I wouldn't expect a sergeant to be in a hand me down face mask helmet, or rather I don't think that a figure of a sergeant in 1180 would look like a knight from 1150.
There may be a practical reason for knights having greater protection. That would be because a knight has a special destrier that he mounts just before battle whereas a sergeant has  the one horse all day and so lighter kit is more practical.
It might be that a knight's mail hauberk could be cut down for a sergeant or retainer, that would make sense, though I wonder if the knight would simply have his altered to fit a new fashion until it was worn out and needed replacing. In the 1130s knights are wearing long hauberks, almost to the ankle, in 1150 its a shorter hauberk and chausses for the legs. Mail could be cut down and the spare  sections de-riveted to make up tight sleeves and chausses.

I am also dubious about shields being used over any length of time.  It is a disposable item, so whilst a knight in 1130 had a tall kite shield, but in 1150 he had a heater shield I doubt that sergeants would have tall kite shields ever!
With helmets , knights have the top grade protection, but could trade down from a face mask helmet or a barrel helm to a steel cap or a chapel de few (as Joinville offered to king Louis in the Egyptian heat) but I doubt that a sergeant ever adopted a hand me down barrel helm.
All in all I don't think that retainers and sergeants looked like knights a generation before.  Mostly both would have a look of the period with some items quite specific to grade.
Roy

Outremer had no manufacturing capability for armour and in the period we're talking about the Latins' armour was imported from Italy (this is according to Nicolle's Osprey on Knight of Outremer). If that's the case then it's possible that there would be a fair amount of earlier armour in use by less rich knights. I agree it wasn't handed down, since the face mask disappears (as do the weird nasal "duckbills" as the nose guard expands) - could it be melted down?

Assuming the richest wore the latest stuff, what size was the class of poorer knights not wearing the latest stuff (and maybe not able to afford a posh memorial) compared to the well equipped? And were they wearing cheaper new stuff, hand me downs, or just making stuff last longer?

Quote from: Mark on January 02, 2013, 01:14:32 AMI've been having a discussion with David Edwards about appropriate figures for late 12th/early 13th knights, which boils down to:
- are there are any decent 28mm ranges for the period and
- to what extent are figures "portable" from other periods

The answer to the first question is basically, no. There are some figures in the Perry/Foundry "Baron's Wars" range, but these were originally one-offs done for Citadel's medieval range and they're not really consistent as a range. The same applies to Essex. BTD has a very small 3rd crusade range (7 figures). Any others?

Mirliton have a handful that might fit the bill:
- "Italian or German Knight galloping, with lance and shield, 1200 [MEC039]"
- "Richard the Lion-Heart, mounted, late 12 th Century. [MEC038]" though he may be a little early.
- "Norman knight 1180 [BPME075]"

Quote from: Duncan Head on January 02, 2013, 10:40:14 PM

Mirliton have a handful that might fit the bill:
- "Italian or German Knight galloping, with lance and shield, 1200 [MEC039]"
- "Richard the Lion-Heart, mounted, late 12 th Century. [MEC038]" though he may be a little early.
- "Norman knight 1180 [BPME075]"

With Mirliton I'd also look at William Longsword [BPME052] and Jean de Montfort [BPME053] - the latter looks very in period with flat topped face mask helmet.