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Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 04, 2023, 07:32:23 AMWe have two sources that affirm Epaminondas was killed by a thrown spear:

Given the circumstances of Epaminondas' death seem very uncertain (was he killed by a Spartan, a Mantinaean or an Athenian cavalryman, for example) it might be incautious to build too much about Spartan tactics from these passages.

Quote from: Erpingham on April 04, 2023, 11:05:35 AM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 04, 2023, 07:32:23 AMWe have two sources that affirm Epaminondas was killed by a thrown spear:

Given the circumstances of Epaminondas' death seem very uncertain (was he killed by a Spartan, a Mantinaean or an Athenian cavalryman, for example) it might be incautious to build too much about Spartan tactics from these passages.

What's interesting is that several people were able to claim credit for Epaminondas' death, which does chime with several individuals chucking spears at him from a distance and nobody being quite sure who had delivered the killing blow. In fact a Spartan, a Mantinean or an Athenian cavalryman could have done it as they were all in the vicinity. I would need something more conclusive to justify discarding two sources like that.

Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 04, 2023, 12:14:39 PMI would need something more conclusive to justify discarding two sources like that.

I didn't suggest discarding them, just using them cautiously.  In this case, critical analysis should leave you with an impression that what actually happened to Epaminondas was uncertain in the years after his death.  What the majority view of the sources is that he was struck down in the midst of the infantry combat, carried alive from the field and died a short time after.  Who killed him and how is uncertain.  There is little to build the idea of new hoplite tactics here.

Quote from: Erpingham on April 04, 2023, 01:10:25 PM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 04, 2023, 12:14:39 PMI would need something more conclusive to justify discarding two sources like that.

I didn't suggest discarding them, just using them cautiously.  In this case, critical analysis should leave you with an impression that what actually happened to Epaminondas was uncertain in the years after his death.  What the majority view of the sources is that he was struck down in the midst of the infantry combat, carried alive from the field and died a short time after.  Who killed him and how is uncertain.  There is little to build the idea of new hoplite tactics here.

Well.....the majority view seems to be that he was killed by a thrown spear. But we can leave it at that. 

BTW IMHO (love the acronyms) the tomb of Epaminondas should be somewhere around here.

Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 06, 2023, 08:03:47 AMWell.....the majority view seems to be that he was killed by a thrown spear. But we can leave it at that. 

Out of 13 sources given by Duncan, you found two that support your thrown spear theory.  Even if we ignore those that don't mention Epaminondas' death, mentions of spear thowing remain a minority. However, I don't think there is much point in continuing to pursue this and, as you propose, we can leave it there.

Quote from: Erpingham on April 06, 2023, 09:44:32 AM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 06, 2023, 08:03:47 AMWell.....the majority view seems to be that he was killed by a thrown spear. But we can leave it at that. 

Out of 13 sources given by Duncan, you found two that support your thrown spear theory.  Even if we ignore those that don't mention Epaminondas' death, mentions of spear thowing remain a minority. However, I don't think there is much point in continuing to pursue this and, as you propose, we can leave it there.

OK. Final, final point: of the 5 sources that mention Epaminondas getting killed, 2 affirm it was by a thrown spear, 2 don't say how he was killed, and one says either by a spear (thrown or not isn't specified) or by a sword. So that's 2 for, 1/2 against. And now I'll definitely leave it. 🤞 🙄