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For your pleasure (or otherwise)

Interesting conclusions from Michael, the thrower, that he'd likely throw his first pilum at 35-40m, then his second at about 10m to pick a man out.

I may have mentioned before ...

Short range penetration weapon

Thanks for linking these here, they have been well worth the time to watch.  Especially as the mark the first recorded time when empirical evidence supports something I think is true.

If you are in touch at all with Tod, part 4 is the plywood board a couple of metres high and wide, set up at 40m and moved closer, to test penetration of shields with minimal accuracy required.

I expect it to show bounce offs until around 20 m, then occasional at 20 and then clear kills at closer.

Quote from: Wien1938 on May 07, 2023, 08:25:25 PMInteresting conclusions from Michael, the thrower, that he'd likely throw his first pilum at 35-40m, then his second at about 10m to pick a man out.

Though then we are getting into tactical usage, rather than exploring parameters.  He's got three pre close combat scenarios - charging at static enemy, standing against charging enemy, mutual charge. We might say the first two give him the same time, which may be enough, but the third?  And he has to draw sword and set shield after the 10m throw.  Needs someone to pull together the results to create a tactical model which might be tested further (e.g. a timed test to throw two pila and draw sword).

Also demonstrated why you don't hold your shield against the body 

We kind of did a few years ago.

Pila is used at 20-15m, and the position of the sword makes more sense as the draw becomes part of the thrust too.

Think of it like cricket.  Watch how much time the batsmen has to react.

And put long or fast run ups out of your mind. They are unnecessary as you are not seeking 40 m distance. 

It's about controlled killing, removing the enemy shield, breaking his focus, maybe even getting right through to him if his shield is too close to his body, but primarily, putting a foot of steel through his shield just before you bash into it with yours and stick him with your sword

Isn't it Livy or Polybius who describes the Romans and the Etruscans closing so fast there is no time for pila. Also see Caesar's battle against Ariovistus where fast closing thwarts thrown missile phase.
Of course there is the frequently cited Pharsalus event.

Roy

Quote from: aligern on June 03, 2023, 11:52:22 AMIsn't it Livy or Polybius who describes the Romans and the Etruscans closing so fast there is no time for pila. Also see Caesar's battle against Ariovistus where fast closing thwarts thrown missile phase.
Of course there is the frequently cited Pharsalus event.

Roy

Interesting points. Of course there is the possibility that this in fact a problem with the commands required. Presumably the chaps behind wouldn't get a good idea of range so some form of command would be required to get the unit to throw and this takes time. There would have to be an alert signal meaning 'on my command throw pila' which could just be a shout of 'Pila!' and then some variation on, 'ready', 'throw' or just 'throw' and if the giver of the orders misses his timing or is more concerned about getting his sword out to meet an onrushing foe then that's it, opportunity missed. It is also possible that the commands needed to alert which ranks were to throw which would take even longer or there could be a sequence, I am not sure we know what actually happened do we?