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As mentioned variously elsewhere, I've been adding to and generally fettling my Early Medieval Welsh. My archers are all Irregular Miniatures and are based on an Image in Ian Heath's Armies of Feudal Europe No.47. Like the book, the Irregular archers carry their arrows in the belt, point up.  This is an addition to his stated source, which doesn't show arrows at all.  As far as I know, no medieval illustration shows archers carrying arrows this way - they are always point down, which makes sense, given the way the arrow is drawn and knocked.  He may, however, have a literary source or even be drawing on an earlier reconstruction.  Heath was an illustrator who usually had a good reason for the reconstructions he made but he mentions nothing about the arrows in this case.

Not a life or death issue - I don't intend to do anything to modify the figures - but out of curiosity, does anyone know what source Heath may have had?

Could it be better for the fletching to carry them that way?

Quote from: Cantabrigian on September 22, 2023, 09:40:43 AMCould it be better for the fletching to carry them that way?

If so, we might expect to see arrows carried this way more often. Though I can't guarantee there are no illustrations of the practice, having looked at hundreds (at least) of pictures of medieval archers, it's certainly not one of the usual methods.

I'd also think you'd be more likely to damage the fletching if the arrows are dangling around your calf as you move.

Assuming you are a poor chap with little equipment the idea of sticking the arrows in your belt seems good but you then have a dilemma - point down and risk stabbing your own leg or point up and risk damaging the fletching - in a fall could be nasty either way!

The usual method was to have the arrows closer to the horizontal, as demonstrated by the poet John Gower



Any interference with the legs was thus avoided.

Twisting the belt could render them up or down this way

Interestingly, one of the traders at the recent Colours show (either Athena Miniatures or Debris of War) used to not only shoot longbows in his younger days, but also made all his own arrows including fletching.  I was attracted to the bodkin and barbed arrows on the front of his stand and he subsequently brought out a flight arrow that was considerably lighter. 

We ended up having quite a chat, but I forgot to ask him which way around he stuffed his ammunition through his belt.  I suspect the answer might have been that he preferred to use a quiver.

 

Here's an example of sheaves of arrows seemingly through the belt.  The archer on the left is shown drawing an arrow.



I can't help thinking this is cumbersome and some sort of container, like Nick says, would be better.  The arrow bag with spacer would be easy to draw arrows from, yet still very bulky.

As an aside, the archer on the left is the model for one of the Perry-sculpted Foundry medievals, with his short-sleeved over-tunic and quiff.

Quote from: Erpingham on September 22, 2023, 06:02:45 PMI can't help thinking this is cumbersome

My experience is that having the arrows pushed through the belt means they are very easy to access quickly and assist rapid shooting.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 22, 2023, 06:31:53 PM

Quote from: Erpingham on September 22, 2023, 06:02:45 PMI can't help thinking this is cumbersome

My experience is that having the arrows pushed through the belt means they are very easy to access quickly and assist rapid shooting.

Useful to get the voice of experience.  Did you find the bulk of the arrows awkward when moving?

Not something I've found. Get used to them pretty quickly.

I thought I'd had was when we used to do our reenactment shows we sometimes did target shooting with sharps. When we did this we stuck the arrows in the ground ready for nocking. If you need to move quickly you can pull them up and stuff them in your belt.

Arrow points up or down.

Quote from: Imperial Dave on September 23, 2023, 07:04:02 AMWhen we did this we stuck the arrows in the ground ready for nocking. If you need to move quickly you can pull them up and stuff them in your belt.

While not doubting your experience, I don't think this would be the case with a sheaf of arrows - if intending to be mobile, you'd only take out a handful, I'd expect. Which does bring in the question of how many arrows were regularly on hand prior to the days of massed central supply (but that's another topic).

So far, the only evidence we seem to have found for arrows held point upwards in the belt is that Dave's re-enactor group did this sometimes.  Perhaps then, re-enactors informed the illustration rather than a period source? Or perhaps in a secondary source? Anyway, it's not a vital question - just curiosity.

Having said I've never seen an arrows upward image, here's one.

You cannot view this attachment.

Not Welsh (Lans le Villard is in Savoy, now in France) dated 1446.  One note of caution.  Thierry Bazin has done a beautiful selection of images from this church but I can't find this one among them. I suspect it comes from the same exhibition of fresco painting from the region, though.

Correction : This figure is indeed from Lans Le Villard.  In the images here, he can be seen in the Christ before Pilate painting.  He then proceeds to follow the action and can be seen in the Christ carrying the Cross scene following (first set of mural images, bottom right).