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I think anyone can access but if not I have the pdf (to read this weekend over a glass or six)

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/classical-quarterly/article/hellenistic-warelephants-and-the-use-of-alcohol-before-battle/39A749F62E21ED16C9CCA3B03E176561

I would like to know how Morris, Humphrey and Reynolds arrived at their conclusion that an adult elephant needs 10 litres of 7% alcohol to get drunk. Bearing in mind that most humans have much better enzymes for dealing with and breaking down alcohol than most mammals I would have expected less than that. I have seen film of intoxicated elephants (from eating fermenting fruit) and they didn't look at all reliable. The best suggestion I could see in the text was that smaller amounts may well have calmed the animals down in the noise and confusion of battle. Alcohol after all is not a stimulant in the way suggested, it is usually described as a depressant drug.

Interesting find, thanks.

Quote from: Ian61 on November 09, 2023, 10:58:46 PMI would like to know how Morris, Humphrey and Reynolds arrived at their conclusion that an adult elephant needs 10 litres of 7% alcohol to get drunk. Bearing in mind that most humans have much better enzymes for dealing with and breaking down alcohol than most mammals I would have expected less than that.

By "Extrapolating from human physiology", apparently.

Extrapolation of the urine, perhaps.

Quote from: Duncan Head on November 09, 2023, 11:15:41 PMInteresting find, thanks.

Quote from: Ian61 on November 09, 2023, 10:58:46 PMI would like to know how Morris, Humphrey and Reynolds arrived at their conclusion that an adult elephant needs 10 litres of 7% alcohol to get drunk. Bearing in mind that most humans have much better enzymes for dealing with and breaking down alcohol than most mammals I would have expected less than that.

By "Extrapolating from human physiology", apparently.

I suspected that Duncan but I am not alone in thinking this a flawed approach:

Quotefrom https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2020.0070

Researchers have suggested that tales of drunk elephants may be a result of 'humanizing elephant behavior' [23]. Yet, this argument is based on calculations drawing on human ethanol metabolism, which may be a critical flaw. Ethanol metabolism in humans is derived [13]. An evolutionary change of one alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme in the ancestor of African great apes [13] results in a relatively high alcohol tolerance. Aside from humans, the capacities of other mammals to metabolize ethanol are not well understood.

The article goes on to say that most animals lack "[the ability] to metabolize ethanol in the upper gastrointestinal tract in a way that is comparable to humans and other great apes, as this change is not shared by most of the species in our sample." It also points out that some species including elephants have a "premature stop colon"(! ) so alcohol metabolism will be slower.

Alcohol metabolism, like all such processes is by a number of steps that have been refined over millennia.   In Carrigan et al. Hominids adapted to metabolize ethanol long before human-directed fermentation. PNAS Early Edition. (2014) doi: 10.1073/pnas.1404167111 it is suggested that Primate ancestors became able to metabolise alcohol better than most animals somewhere between 7 and 21 MA.
Human genetic studies suggest the ability became enhanced more recently and most people with African or Eurasian heritage posses genes that allow even better metabolism (helpful to stop us dying from water born diseases). This is much less evident in some populations in very far East of Eurasia and the Americas.

In short elephants might well become tippy on less alcohol than you would imagine.

Quote from: Ian61 on November 10, 2023, 09:50:38 AMIt also points out that some species including elephants have a "premature stop colon"(! )

It actually says "premature stop codon", a stop codon being a piece of genetic code that essentially says "gene ends here". A premature one renders a gene more-or-less nonfunctional as the protein coded by it will be incomplete.

Quote from: Andreas Johansson on November 10, 2023, 10:47:25 AM

Quote from: Ian61 on November 10, 2023, 09:50:38 AMIt also points out that some species including elephants have a "premature stop colon"(! )

It actually says "premature stop codon", a stop codon being a piece of genetic code that essentially says "gene ends here". A premature one renders a gene more-or-less nonfunctional as the protein coded by it will be incomplete.

Sorry, I knew that (I have taught this!!!!) (I do I always struggle to proof check as quite dyslexic) I don't think a 'stopped colon' has any meaning!  

Quote from: Ian61 on November 10, 2023, 11:11:54 AMI don't think a 'stopped colon' has any meaning!  

Constipation?

"Stopped colon" = a grammatical device that your teacher doesn't approve?

I, too, have seen film of drunken elephants, one of which had lost control of its front legs so could only move backwards slowly, dragging its trunk pitifully.  No stampeding through its own lines.

I suspect that the elephant handlers were asking for alcohol for the elephants but applying it to themselves.