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Thank you so much for your help Duncan, I think I have a very clear idea now of what I want to do for units in the Italian peninsula.

When preparing figures for painting then I like to ensure the javelin armed foot have more than a single javelin, so tend to add extra javelins in the left hand.

I was doing this to some Samnite foot when I realised the figures had a curved Scutum shield so the javelins weren't going to fit if I added them going through the hand.  This lead me to wonder how troops with a Scutum held an extra javelin.

Did they hold them in their left hand using their thumb to press the javelin into the back of the Scutum?  Did they carry them in their right hand and plant them in the ground (similar to way archers sometimes did with arrows)?

I spotted a similar discussion about Roman pila (http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=1287.msg14331#msg14331) but couldn't see an answer.

Any views?  Help!

Not aware of any further information.

This pic has always intrigued me, if only because it is not completely clear what sort of shield it is.
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Quote from: Duncan Head on November 16, 2023, 02:31:25 PMNot aware of any further information.

This pic has always intrigued me, if only because it is not completely clear what sort of shield it is.
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I have always thought that, IF (big if) the painting is at all realistic, that the shields must be on the forearm a) because they seem to be close to the bicep, not extended; and b) to allow the javelins to be gripped.

True. But as you say, big "if"; and does it mean that there is a hollow behind that central "point", over the forearm? What would be the, err, point of that construction?

Thanks Duncan.  Any reason why javelins couldn't be held by a strap behind the shield?  Possibly similar to how plumbata were carried (all I know is they were, somehow, carried behind a shield)?

Quote from: Duncan Head on November 16, 2023, 05:02:56 PMTrue. But as you say, big "if"; and does it mean that there is a hollow behind that central "point", over the forearm? What would be the, err, point of that construction?

The hollow could be a crumple zone to reduce impact on the arm. If they are woven, I think there is a tendency for the centre to bulge anyway, so it could make a virtue out of a feature.

The figure on the right does look like he has the shield on his arm so that his hand is free. I'm not sure if the one on the left is also supposed to have javelins, the lines which I think are the shafts don't line up and they would have to be strapped to his elbow. If that one isn't a good guide then perhaps the other isn't either.

Quote from: gavindbm on November 16, 2023, 08:29:07 PMAny reason why javelins couldn't be held by a strap behind the shield?

The problem I suspect is that any strapping tight enough to secure weapons without the aid of a hand would then make it v difficult to get them free for use, which would be a bore in the middle of a battle.

Quote from: gavindbm on November 16, 2023, 08:29:07 PMAny reason why javelins couldn't be held by a strap behind the shield?  Possibly similar to how plumbata were carried (all I know is they were, somehow, carried behind a shield)?

And that's all we know, that they were held or carried "in the hollow of the shield" - the various strap or rack arrangements seen are all more or less guesswork. Like David, I am a little sceptical of any strapping arrangement that would allow you to remove a javelin quickly and easily, yet not fall apart.

Thought I would post this here for convenience.
https://www.academia.edu/99125472/Weapons_Combatants_and_Combat_in_the_Parietal_and_Vascular_Funerary_Paintings_of_Campania_and_Lucania_late_5th_early_3rd_century_BC_
Another paper (in French) covering mostly Campania and Lucania but with more general discussion as well. Includes thoughts on the adoption of the pilum* across Italy, the transition from clipeus to scutum including the Roman experience.

*Or similar. Pilumoids? Hyssoids?

Thanks for that, Peter, looks like quite a bit of interesting stuff in there, though amongst quite a bit of meandering verbiage. Shame all those hyperlinks to online illustrations don't work.

Note the slinger in figure 137 - a Campanian vase possibly showing Apulians - lacking in the DBMM list!

Thank you.  I think, on balance, that I will keep painting rather than try to resurrect my rusty French.

Quote from: Keraunos on February 08, 2024, 11:03:00 PMThank you.  I think, on balance, that I will keep painting rather than try to resurrect my rusty French.

Some of the pictures are ones I hadn't seen before, so more ideas for painting.

Nice thread revival and a reminder of what we have missed with Patrick's passing

Absolutely