Languages in Roman and Post Roman Britain

[Imperial Dave]

When French contingents travelled to Scotland, as was occasionally the case under the Auld Alliance (Scotland and France), Scots would not have been able to tell northern and southern Frenchmen apart.  Hence, when giving acknowledgement or assent, both forms were given: oc and aye.

I think 'och' is just an interjection, comparable to 'oh'. It can equally be used to show disapproval - "Och, Dr Cameron..."

Interestingly enough, that is pretty much the use of 'ag' in Afrikaans (and Sah Theffricun Inglissh). It conveys surprise and irritation: "Ag mehn, thet's the nahnth tahm yoo've gotus lorst-ay."

that got me chuckling Justin. Love that accent

[aligern]

Surely we should look for South African English to be Dutch influenced? The majority of the white population is of Dutch/Huguenot descent.

It is interesting that Australian and New Zwealand accents are quite different from any UK accent.  I wonder if the nasal sound of all three is to do with Coriolis effect?
Roy

[Imperial Dave]

Surely we should look for South African English to be Dutch influenced? The majority of the white population is of Dutch/Huguenot descent.

It is interesting that Australian and New Zwealand accents are quite different from any UK accent.  I wonder if the nasal sound of all three is to do with Coriolis effect?
Roy

I always imagined the Antipodean accents to be related to Cockney.....a reflection on the majority of original settlers??

[Jim Webster]

The same discussion that mentioned the SA accent also touched on Aus and NZ and apparently they were initially settled from different areas of England (perhaps depending upon where you committed the crime in the first place :-)
I do not pretend to be an expert on this, I'm just some guy who half heard a radio discussion 

Jim

[aligern]

I didn't think that New Zealand was used for the transportation of criminals?
Roy

[Justin Swanton]

I remember hearing that South African English is descended from 16/17th century southern English (a more specific dialect than that) so I suppose it probably isn't all that surprising that the interjection (and a very useful interjection) has widespread use. 

Jim

Probably true, along with the Afrikaans element. It's interesting that heavily accented South African English is very distinct from an Afrikaner speaking heavily accented English. Both have not travelled quite the same path.

And don't forget the input of African languages. 'Boet/Boetie' - 'chum' or 'pal' in South African English comes from Afrikaans which itself got it from Zulu: 'Bhuti' - 'brother'.

And now I'll stop going off-topic. 

[Imperial Dave]

The same discussion that mentioned the SA accent also touched on Aus and NZ and apparently they were initially settled from different areas of England (perhaps depending upon where you committed the crime in the first place :-)
I do not pretend to be an expert on this, I'm just some guy who half heard a radio discussion 

Jim

me too......... 

[Mark G]

Antipodean accents are merging now .
Well, at least in the cities.  Farmers you can still tell apart easily, but city kids, not so easy.

The relative proportions of Celtic fringe settlements had an early effect too.

[Swampster]

Surely we should look for South African English to be Dutch influenced? The majority of the white population is of Dutch/Huguenot descent.

It is interesting that Australian and New Zwealand accents are quite different from any UK accent.  I wonder if the nasal sound of all three is to do with Coriolis effect?
Roy

I've heard it said - with no tongue in cheek - that an Aussie accent at least is influenced by trying to keep flies out of your mouth. And that Manc and Brummie/Black Country accents split from the surrounding ones through trying to keep the noxious industrial fumes out of your system.

[rodge]

One thing, and its probably me, but on occasion, some Northern accents (ie Cumbria/Northumberland) sound quite similar to some Welsh ones......?

Possibly not surprising where Cumbria is concerned IIRC. Isn't the name of the county an echo of the Brittonnic 'Combrogi' ?

[aligern]

the Cumbrian and Northumbria/Durham accents differ fundamentally from Welsh accents in having the short a and oo sounds, Valleys in Welsh has a long a, in Northumberland it would have a short a.
It is easy to assume that the English spoken in Wales is accented by Welsh, but listening to Welsh it sounds little like the English Welsh people speak.

Roy

[Sharur]

the Cumbrian and Northumbria/Durham accents differ fundamentally from Welsh accents in having the short a and oo sounds, Valleys in Welsh has a long a, in Northumberland it would have a short a.

This would apply to pretty much the northern half of Britain, not just Northumberland! The first person I ever met from Wales was startled and horrified to discover this truism during a conversation that included the town name "Bath" 

Stepping back a couple of topic pages in this discussion, to where genetics and DNA analyses cropped up, I came across the Ancestral Journeys website, which may be of interest in this regard. The homepage starts with a sales pitch for the site author's (Jean Manco) Thames & Hudson book of the same name, Ancestral Journeys: The Peopling of Europe from the First Venturers to the Vikings, on the subject of what DNA analyses says on the people and their origins in conjunction with archaeological, historical and other data sources. Don't be put off, as Manco seems to know her stuff, and the site is excellent, with proper footnotes on each page and (mostly) working links - providing you're using a W3C standard browser, like Chrome, Firefox, IE8, etc., at least. And printing the webpage gets you a document with a proper list of footnotes, just like an academic paper, which is a nice touch, while these are hidden-embedded in the page when using it online.

The following link is the portal page for details on British Celtic tribes, for instance, which may be a little more useful given this topic than starting at the book-ad homepage: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celtictribes.shtml .

The book itself is pretty reasonably-priced too - 20 GBP for a 300+ page hardback (T&H to boot). There's an Amazon.com webpage with some sample e-book pages available, in case anyone wants to try before buying.

[Imperial Dave]

the Cumbrian and Northumbria/Durham accents differ fundamentally from Welsh accents in having the short a and oo sounds, Valleys in Welsh has a long a, in Northumberland it would have a short a.

This would apply to pretty much the northern half of Britain, not just Northumberland! The first person I ever met from Wales was startled and horrified to discover this truism during a conversation that included the town name "Bath" 

Stepping back a couple of topic pages in this discussion, to where genetics and DNA analyses cropped up, I came across the Ancestral Journeys website, which may be of interest in this regard. The homepage starts with a sales pitch for the site author's (Jean Manco) Thames & Hudson book of the same name, Ancestral Journeys: The Peopling of Europe from the First Venturers to the Vikings, on the subject of what DNA analyses says on the people and their origins in conjunction with archaeological, historical and other data sources. Don't be put off, as Manco seems to know his stuff, and the site is excellent, with proper footnotes on each page and (mostly) working links - providing you're using a W3C standard browser, like Chrome, Firefox, IE8, etc., at least. And printing the webpage gets you a document with a proper list of footnotes, just like an academic paper, which is a nice touch, while these are hidden-embedded in the page when using it online.

The following link is the portal page for details on British Celtic tribes, for instance, which may be a little more useful given this topic than starting at the book-ad homepage: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celtictribes.shtml .

The book itself is pretty reasonably-priced too - 20 GBP for a 300+ page hardback (T&H to boot). There's an Amazon.com webpage with some sample e-book pages available, in case anyone wants to try before buying.

Thanks Alastair this is really useful and the website is a cracking mine of information so thanks again 

[Sharur]

Just got my copy of Ancestral Journeys today, and wanted to correct my original note about the book and website author, as it turns out Jean Manco is actually "she", not "he" as I'd thought - posting amended above as a result.

As for the book, well if the website impressed you, you'll need a copy of the book too, as simply from my initial skimming of it, there's a wealth of new information and discussion in it, coupling up evidence from archaeology, history, linguistics and DNA analyses especially. Although centred on Europe, including the British Isles, because it deals with where the peoples from the continent came from (going back to c. 46,000 BC), geographically it covers from Europe and North Africa eastwards to India and similar northern hemisphere longitudes, plus points adjacent but still further afield. And it includes a host of new maps showing the masses of DNA evidence in simplified, comprehensible, form, which apparently mirror things like language distributions and other cultural elements.

Of course, DNA analytical work in conjunction with these existing disciplines is still in its infancy, but the book and website show how far and how fast the evidence from DNA has leapt forwards in just a few years. While I'm sure more developments will follow, this work is unquestionably the best, most comprehensive and comprehensible I've come across to date combining all these key elements.

[Imperial Dave]

Thanks Alastair.....another book to go on the wanted list 

I've got a couple of European and UK genetic study books but they primarily deal with, well, genetics and distribution of alleles with population shifts but not with any great understanding of associated language markers.

I'll put this to the top of the wanted pile I think