Late 6th/early 7th Century Southern Welsh forces and their Saxon counterparts

[Imperial Dave]

Ok, a similar but not exactly the same question as my Strathclyde enquiry of a few months back. I am looking into the composition of the opposing forces around the Gwent/Ergyng + Hwicce borderlands in the 6th/7th C. Looking for pointers on likely infantry types and likelyhood of cavalry and if so what kind?

If we assume that Caerwent (Venta Silurum) is still occupied and operating as an administrative or possibly ecclesiastical centre of reasonable high status (as described in the Llandaff Charters), is it possible that early Welsh/late Sub Roman forces are centralised and of reasonable quality? Likewise as the Hwicce border region (by the River Wye) is an area of expanding Wessex power so likely to see more aggressive and higher quality infantry?

Written records for the area and the timeframe are very limited but I would like to get people's opinion on a few things:

1. as per above musings, likely composition of forces from both sides   
2. likely size of such forces
3. Any sources, good books or random/otherwise thoughts from others

Any info gratefully received and will be going towards an article for Slingshot (as per my other thread on roman roads!)

[barry carter]

Hmmm....................interesting. Could archaeology help? The Staffordshire Hoard stimulates thoughts about power in and around the general area.
Having just got sidetracked into looking back at Mortimers Cross, I cannot stop myself thinking around this one. All this is preventing me from looking into what I should be investigating - the representation of pies in 14th century illuminated manuscripts. Each to their own!

[Imperial Dave]

not a bad shout Barry. I'll have a trawl through some local museums and on 't'internet to see what turns up

[Dave Beatty]

Have a look at these links having to do with the Battle of Dyrham (577):

http://www.glos.ac.uk/bgas/tbgas/v051/bg051095.pdf
http://www.britannia.com/history/ebk/articles/nenniuscities.html
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=7586
http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artcit/caersalis.htm
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_deorham.html
http://www2.glos.ac.uk/bgas/tbgas/v008/bg008062.pdf
http://knol.google.com/k/fc-harris-dsc/pre-dark-age-britain/1f9msww63gfy1/14#
http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/viaeromanae.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dyrham
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1324699

Does Gildas and Bede give some details on this period and area?

[Imperial Dave]

Hi Dave,

you have put me to shame again with the links so thanks for those!

I have been looking into the Battle of Dyrham and its aftermath/ramifications and certainly has a direct effect on my research as the area I am looking at is in the "front line" in the subsequent years from this event and so highly relevent

Gildas and Bede are annoyingly vague to my mind but Bede does mention battles and leaders around the timeframe and the area I am looking into. Interestingly, some sources put Gildas as living at some point within this area and some of his writing may be influenced by this.....

[aligern]

Dyrrham is an interesting battle. Whether Arthur's battle that holds the Saxons is at Baydon in Wilts or Badon (Bath)  it appears that the Saxons are making an attempt to get to the Severn and split the Welsh territories. There is then a hiatus of X years of peace. When the Saxons get back going again they push on to the hillfort at Dyrrham and defeat the forces of Gloucester, Bath and Cirencester at Dyrrham. This is a crushing defeat for the Britons and results in a splitting of Devon from Wales. However, what is really interesting is that the names of the 'kings' of the British cities are Irish.
My belief here is that what yas happened is that:
The Britons have hired Irish mercenaries
The mercenaries have revolted and taken over
That is why the  defeated kings are apparently Irish
The Irish troops then evacuate to SWales leaving the towns defenceless.
John Morris has some reasonable stuff on the Irish penetration of SWales. I believe that they are playing the same mercenary role as the Saxons had done, but now the British cities cannot get Saxons as federates as they are the enemy.
Roy

[Imperial Dave]

thanks for the repy Roy. I had quite forgotten about the "Irish connection"

Gwent+Ergyng (now largely Monmouthshire) borders Brecon/Brecheiniog (now part of Powys). The kingdom of Brecheiniog was allegedly created/annexed and ruled by Brychan, an Irish King who also appears to get roped into the Mabinogion story in the early Middle Ages. He is credited with fighting against Arthur, Cai (or Sir Kay by later medieval writings) and Bedywr (Bedivere). There is a Crannog in the lake at Llangorse nr Brecon (an typically Irish abode of high status). He is alleged to have been active in the 5th century and credited with having at least 24 children by 3 wives! Interestingly plenty of Ogham examples have been found in the area to substantiate the founding of an Irish sub Kingdom in the area.

If you read the Mabinogion there is a passage about the hunting by Arthur and his men of Twrch Trwyth, which some have taken to be a metaphorical story about a series of battles against a (probably) Irish foe. This foe may not be Brychan himself but never the less someone who is alleged to have destroyed a third of Ireland in his recent past and is now encamped on Western British soil!

The upshot of all this is that around the timeframe of my enquiry, there is an active Irish sub Kingdom only 40miles from The River Wye (the border if you like between the Hwicce and Gwent) and 70 from Dyrrham. If the Irish are effectively an "enclave" and quite separate linguistically, culturally and politically from the rest of the surrounding British kingdoms they could be a ready source of mercenaries in the 6th Century (and later). This would also be consistent with them being originally Foderati settled as a buffer against Saxon pirates and/or their kinsmen) in the area.

OR are they brought in directly from Ireland, fight at Dyrrham and then retreat to Brecon at that point.....

I will have to do a bit more reading and blow the dust off my copy of the Mabinogion

[barry carter]

Have you read Guy Halsall's recent "Worlds of Arthur. Facts and Fictions of the Dark Ages." It raises some interesting points, especially about the adoption of cultural identities.

[aligern]

The Age Of Arthur: A History of the British Isles [Paperback]
John Morris (Author)
its criticised by some because he interprets some elements fairly actively but he is really good for mentions of obscure stuff like Irish settlement.
Its also dead cheap in paperback from Amazon.
Royl

[Imperial Dave]

Hi Barry,

as a matter of fact I have and an interesting read it is too (although it bounces around a bit in terms of conclusions).

From memory he splits Britain into highland and lowland zones which he then alludes that this drives a lot of the future "states" of English and Briton/Welsh identity. A geographical physical and also cultural (from the Roman occupation sense) divide helps drive British ethnic populations to adopt English cultural identities within what becomes England etc (amongst other things)

There's more to it than that so thats a book I have on the "must read again list" now

With regards to the "Irish question" or at least the Brecon kingdom aspect of it, this raises an interesting question. Are the "Irish" completely set apart from their "Welsh" neighbours or is there some cultural adoption going on? I still maintain that it cant all be cultural adoption, there must be some ethnic origination going on....but another question is...for how long? I mean if the kingdom is set up by an Irish King in the 5th but after say 2 generations receives no further fresh blood from Ireland, if merging intermarrying goes on with the local population, over time do they adopt "Irish" cultural heritage? In point of fact we now know the answer to furthest extent of this question which is no. Brecon becomes Welsh culturally in the Middle Ages but arguably highly Anglicised in the 20th Century with no remnant of Irish culture remaining.

Even more interesting is the area known as "Little England" in Pembrokeshire, SW Wales which has been linguistically (and presumably to a degree culturally) tied to English/England for upwards of around years.   

[Imperial Dave]

The Age Of Arthur: A History of the British Isles [Paperback]
John Morris (Author)
its criticised by some because he interprets some elements fairly actively but he is really good for mentions of obscure stuff like Irish settlement.
Its also dead cheap in paperback from Amazon.
Royl

thanks Roy

I have a copy buried somewhere in my mountain of books in the spare room, read it a long time ago and forgotten most if the detail... so another to add to the must read again list!

[Sharur]

Dave, you might find some further pointers to the Irish presence in SW Wales around this period from the following Wikipedia pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deisi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expulsion_of_the_Deisi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dyfed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales_in_the_Roman_era

Although they do tend to circle round one another, there are some useful references listed, plus you'll likely come up with other things to search for online or through texts from comments made.

Also, your mentioning the Twrch Trwyth episode from Culhwch & Olwen in "The Mabinogion" collection of tales reminded me of an article I read more than a decade back on tracing the path of the hunt/military campaign (depending on your interpretation of what is after all a story). That was in a now-defunct small press journal which sadly doesn't seem to be available online, but I did come across a site almost as interesting, an interactive map showing the Twrch Trwyth hunt across southern Wales, places as identified modernly, from the 2012 book by Margaret Jones, "Arthur and the Twrch Trwyth". Quote from elsewhere on that website: THE TWRCH TRWYTH TRAIL, a story-themed trail, is being created across South Wales to mark the chase, and highlight significant points in the story where men and beasts were joined in battle.

As they say in the media these days though, other maps are available, albeit typically (if unsurprisingly) covering similar ground.

Plus, of course, there's a Wikipedia entry on Twrch Trwyth too.

And thanks to Barry for accidentally reminding me I hadn't quite finished Guy Halsall's "World's of Arthur", but have now retrieved it from one of my "still to do" piles!

[Imperial Dave]

Thanks Alastair,

the map of the Twrch Trwyth is really interesting and indicates an not unlikely pathway for a campaign against "Irish" incursions. The Mabinogion is a collection of stories but possibly with that old "kernel of truth" buried in it. What I will know try to do is overlay a map of known (and suggested) Roman roads over the map to cross check for "fit"