Carolignian banners

[Mark G]

I'm plotting out a Carolingian army for the summer painting plan.

I am tempted to cover the units with dragon standards because I've seen a passing reference to them.

before I commit to this flight of fancy, what sort of ground am I on if I do?

and should I be keeping to only foot, or only mounted, or can I just whack them about all over the place ?

[aligern]

There is a picture from the St Gall Psalter that definitely shows a dragon banner.
I used dragons for the army,  but now think that the dragon might be a special banner so there might be only one with the emperor and that the dragon indicated his Romanitas.
Other flags are very likely similar to Avar and Byzantine ones, that is like the Norman flags at Hastings, square or oblong with tails. I have a theory about flags and it is that  there cannot be effective flags until you have a lightweight material such as silk because thick materials won't work as well if hanging from a vertical pole.

So a dragon(s) would be right, tailed flags from a vertical pole likely right and a vexillum like flag entirely possible for a religious contingent supplied by a bishop or an abbot.

Roy

[Duncan Head]

The dragon banner in the St Gall Psalter is here.

At this one (last picture) is Charlemagne receiving the Imperial banner from Pope Leo.

Some little flags about half-way down here, though they may be more like lance-pennons.

[Erpingham]

Here are a couple from the Utrecht Psalter

Carried by angels at top of picture
http://bc.library.uu.nl/node/599


Cavalry pennants perhaps (from a later copy, not the original)?
http://libraries.slu.edu/a/digital_collections/mssexhibit07/images/harley03.jpg

This two or three tailed type does seem to be common

[Mark G]

I was thinking of a dragon with each foot unit and cavalry unit, and keeping the oriflame for the general.

but I am now thinking of adding dragons to just the scarae (and as dismounted) to differentiate them more clearly from the caballari.

[aligern]

Yes, I would suggest dragons for the elite units and flags for the more ordinary?

Are you short any figures Mark? I have spare Carolingians I could pop in a bag for you.
Roy

[Mark G]

I'm not at the order stage yet, April or May i think.

Ill let you know -  im looking at baueda and donnington, to fit in with my baueda Vikings, so we have a matchup for November out of it.

It will be hard to go past splintered for Saxon allies though.

[aligern]

Look at Old Glory and Minifigs too. if you are into replacing spears then Minifigs have some really neat stuff.
Roy

[Duncan Head]

Another three-tailed banner, with tassels on the end, on the cover of Bachrach's edition of Flodoard's Annals.

Ian Heath's discussion of Carolingian standards is online here, showing the same examples we've already picked up.

[Erpingham]

For completeness, some nicely drawn three-tails from the St Gall or Leiden Maccabees (later 9th/early 10th century) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/15v_Leiden_I_Maccabees.jpg

[Duncan Head]

Since Mark is thinking of painting Carolingian scarae, I though I'd mention Bernard Bachrach's suggestion that the household troops had two units who wore white and blue cloaks respectively, with white shirts and scarlet breeches - visible at Google Books. I think this may be wildly optimistic over-interpretation of Notker's remarks on Frankish dress, but I'd still use it if I were painting a Carolingian army!

[Robert Heiligers]

I'm plotting out a Carolingian army for the summer painting plan.

I am tempted to cover the units with dragon standards because I've seen a passing reference to them.

before I commit to this flight of fancy, what sort of ground am I on if I do?

and should I be keeping to only foot, or only mounted, or can I just whack them about all over the place ?

Roy is right about the dragon standards. The red sock-kite draco was the personal standard of Charlemagne, by the way. Other cavalry units carried dragon standards as well, though they probably had a different colour. "The Age of Charlemagne" and "Carolingian Cavalryman", both by David Nicolle in the Osprey's Men-at-Arms (nr. 150) and Warrior (nr.96) series do not provide more information than that already provided by the members below.

There must have been quite a selection of banners, though, since scarae were subdivided into cunei of 50-100 men, with each scara and cuneus having its own banner.

It might be nice to blend in some abbots and bishops, Mark, since the military role of the clergy was crucial in those days. Whereas fighting men dressed rather soberly, military clergymen were equipped with sumptuous robes and canopies to achieve their moral effect.

[Mark G]

Thanks Duncan,

I have that bachrach book, courtesy of a delayed train stop at oxford and a chance to pop into OxBow books on company time, but had forgotten the reference to the colour scheme.

Abbots and bishops is a very good suggestion too, although the only figures I see for this so far are for much later Normans.

[Jim Webster]

Thanks Duncan,

I have that bachrach book, courtesy of a delayed train stop at oxford and a chance to pop into OxBow books on company time, but had forgotten the reference to the colour scheme.

Abbots and bishops is a very good suggestion too, although the only figures I see for this so far are for much later Normans.

I suspect clerical fashion changed more slowly than military, you can probably get away with it, but if they've got shields, they might need changing :-)

Jim