Byzantine catapults

[tobypartridge]

The DBMM Byzantine lists allow for catapults mounted on wagons.  I know that they are possibly rather spurious - there is a lot of debate about what the original Greek actually means, but what sort of catapults might they have been?  Would they still ahve been using Roman style torsion catapults up to the 10th century, or would they have been replaced by trebuchets or would there have been a mix of all sorts?  And does anyone know if anyone does 15mm models for them?

Toby

[Patrick Waterson]

Mantua Models do a 1:17 scale model which at least shows what the standard field (or ocean wave) issue looks like.

Another pic here.

This is billed as a 10th century catapult 'from an original Byzantine 10th century drawing' so is presumably accurate for period.

While on the subject, or at least not too far off it, here is an interesting rendering of a scorpion.  The three bow arms per side would add a bit of punch to the missile.

A quick look through 15mm figure manufacturers has found none so far for Byzantine catapults of the period - if anyone knows of any (or in a pinch any other models that might be acceptable/convertible) please say.

[Erpingham]

This is billed as a 10th century catapult 'from an original Byzantine 10th century drawing' so is presumably accurate for period.

Or it could be from a tenth century copy of an ancient treatise and not reflect contemporary artillery at all.

A quick google turned up an article by John Haldon in the Oxford Handbook of Byzantine studies (Chapter II.8.8 ) which discusses artillery (pp.478-80).  Haldon believes torsion-powered artillery was gone by 6th century, although he quotes the existence of images of torsion-powered artillery in a 10th century copy of the works of Hero of Alexandria, which may the origin of the model.  He does take seriously the idea of wagon mounted artillery in the 10th century though.

[aligern]

As described in this article here
http://deremilitari.org/2014/03/byzantine-heavy-artillery-the-helepolis/

Roy

[tobypartridge]

Yes - I saw the Mantua model, and instinctively thought of it as being too classical looking - I was under the impression that torsion artillery had gone, which certainly seems to be the received wisdom.

Thanks for the link to the Dennis article - reading that seems to make a persuasive case for them being rope-pull trebuchets - probably quite small ones to be mounted on wagons for tactical mobility.  I shall model them as such and defy my opponents to produce a case for them being unhistorical...

[tadamson]

Dennis changed his mind from 'bolt shooters mounted on wagons' to 'trebuchets carried on wagons'.
If you want to use them as Art use the bolt shooters.

[aligern]

So what does this 'bolt shooter' look like?
Clearly tenth century Franks had engines that threw missiles. What do these look like?
Roy

[Patrick Waterson]

Dennis changed his mind from 'bolt shooters mounted on wagons' to 'trebuchets carried on wagons'.
If you want to use them as Art use the bolt shooters.

Here is a quick rope-pull-trebuchet orientation page for those interested.  Selection of contemporary illustrations starting here.

The challenge is seeing how any of these could be worked on a wagon.  Like Tom, I would suggest using the bolt-shooters.  Does the received wisdom about torsion artillery having disappeared actually rest on anything other than opinions?

[Duncan Head]

Some of the Chinese rope-pull trebuchets are wheeled - the "wheeled whirlwind" in Patrick's selection of illustrations - and I would imagine a wagon-mounted version could be similar to those. As the notes to that illustration suggest, you'd need to fix the wheeld carriage firmly in position, but otherwise I don't see a problem. The pulling crew would presumably be stood on the ground, not in the wagon.

[Erpingham]

Does the received wisdom about torsion artillery having disappeared actually rest on anything other than opinions?

Checking the Haldon piece mentioned above, it does appear to be speculation that torsion artillery went out of use.  The argument appears to be that the bolt-throwers go first, as they are more complicated, to be replaced by tension bolt shooters.  Onagers last longer but lose out to the traction trebuchets.

Haldon isn't convinced by the idea that the cart mounted artillery are trebuchets - he notes references to them shooting bolts and having windlasses and sliders.  So tension bolt shooters would be a possible option.

[aligern]

OK, so what does a torsion powered  bolt shooter look like? Apart that is from the unlikely looking  crossed bows effort shown earlier.
Roy

[Jim Webster]

Some of the Chinese rope-pull trebuchets are wheeled - the "wheeled whirlwind" in Patrick's selection of illustrations - and I would imagine a wagon-mounted version could be similar to those. As the notes to that illustration suggest, you'd need to fix the wheeld carriage firmly in position, but otherwise I don't see a problem. The pulling crew would presumably be stood on the ground, not in the wagon.

I'd have thought the wagon mounted version would work well. Fastened firmly to the wagon it should be solid enough, more solid than just four legs on the ground. With the pullers on the ground, effectively you've just got a taller trebuchet with a longer pull without having to find longer timbers for the uprights, so I'd have thought it was more powerful on the wagon than the same weapon would be stood on the ground

Jim

[Erpingham]

OK, so what does a torsion powered  bolt shooter look like? Apart that is from the unlikely looking  crossed bows effort shown earlier.
Roy

The obvious answer would be a large crossbow, however there are a number of weird contraptions that come under the medieval term espringal or springald which one might look at.

[aligern]

Yes a giant crossbow makes sense. That too would use pulleys and a ratchet to draw back the arms.

Roy

[Duncan Head]

The obvious answer would be a large crossbow, however there are a number of weird contraptions that come under the medieval term espringal or springald which one might look at.

I haven't got Liebel's book(*), but isn't the Springald thought to involve a revival of the torsion concept? See http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/siegeweapons-f-torsionspringald.html

(*) Jean Liebel, Springalds and Great Crossbows, Royal Armouries 1998