What are the sources for Saxon and British/Welsh battles being at river fords

[Imperial Dave]

Not sure if answered elsewhere but what are the sources/evidence for battles between Saxons and Britons/Welsh being mainly at river fords? I seem to remember it being written somewhere...possibly in Ian Heath's Armies and Enemies of The Dark Ages? Looking for the evidence for this and how frequently it happens

[Duncan Head]

Battlesite names in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle are at least part of the reason, I think, and maybe Bede as well.

[Imperial Dave]

Thanks Duncan...

I guess another questions is why? What I mean is why fords specifically (in the majority) rather than hillforts, towns or other features? In addition the inference is that British/Welsh forces choose to engage (defend) at fords rather than the other way around

[Mick Hession]

Fords are choke points ; if you're defending, you know the invaders have to come that way. Alternatively, enemy raiders returning home with loot can be caught while crossing.

Cheers
Mick

[Imperial Dave]

Thanks Mick. Makes sense although it seems that the British/Welsh were very "fond" of river ford engagements and to my eye more than most other beligerents or is that my imagination?

[Mick Hession]

I think it's the nature of the sort of raiding warfare prevalent in that part of the world. Fords were also common battle sites in Ireland, where similar conditions existed.

Cheers
Mick

[aligern]

Its Nennius, who writes in the ninth century and gives a list of Arthur's battles

Then it was, that the magnanimous Arthur, with all the kings and military force of Britain, fought against the Saxons. And though there were many more noble than himself, yet he was twelve times chosen their commander, and was as often conqueror. The first battle in which he was engaged, was at the mouth of the river Gleni. The second, third, fourth, and fifth, were on another river, by the Britons called Duglas, in the region Linuis. The sixth, on the river Bassas. The seventh in the wood Celidon, which the Britons call Cat Coit Celidon. The eighth was near Gurnion castle, where Arthur bore the image of the Holy Virgin, mother of God, upon his shoulders, and through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the holy Mary, put the Saxons to flight, and pursued them the whole day with great slaughter. The ninth was at the City of Legion, which is called Cair Lion. The tenth was on the banks of the river Trat Treuroit. The eleventh was on the mountain Breguoin, which we call Cat Bregion. The twelfth was a most severe contest, when Arthur penetrated to the hill of Badon. In this engagement, nine hundred and forty fell by his hand alone, no one but the Lord affording him assistance. In all these engagements the Britons were successful. For no strength can avail against the will of the Almighty.
Whilst fords make for choke points I suspect that it is as much that rivers are borders and the ford is a suitable place name on the road. Actually having a battle at a ford is not ideal as the opponent can easily pass the river above or below the ford whist you are held against it.
xRoy

Roy

[Justin Swanton]

The Battle of Stirling Bridge shows what a smaller force can do against a larger infantry opponent that is trying to cross a river. The ford effectively cuts the opponent army in two, enabling the smaller attack force to gain local superiority against the one half whilst the other half is powerless to come to its aid in time.

[aligern]

Which is why the Vikings only agree to fight at Maldon if they can wholly cross the river and why only a fool would cross in the face of an opponent and be defeated in detail.

A ford might be a great place for a delaying action, but the defender would have to be so careful that the attacker had not already crossed above and flanked him.
Roy

[Justin Swanton]

I'm thinking more on the lines of an ambush, quite possible if the forces involved are small and Arthur's lot are mounted. A good parallel would be Ecdicius, who with a small cavalry force managed to sting the larger Visigothic army several times. The fact that Arthur fights many engagements would suggest this is a case of repeated ambush by someone who is more mobile and knows the terrain.

[Imperial Dave]

That's partly what was puzzling me in so far as you can get cut off/surrounded if you are anchored to a fording point. Local knowledge of course helps. Are ford/river battles purely tactical in choice (good or bad) or is there some ritualistic aspect to them?

[aligern]

Except, Justin that Arthur's battles appear to be across a fair range of territory as though he is penning each Saxon group.
Of course there are interpretations that put all the battles in a tight area such as Southern Scotland, but I think wide actions from a central point against multiple enemies who then make a major thrust that is defeated at Baydon makes a lot of sense.
Roy

[rodge]

Fords were a good place to intercept forces engaged in ravaging/harrying (which, with the exception of a few pitched battles was usual tactic in the 11th & 12thC) although fords were not the only place that such defensive actions took place (woods being the other favourite).
Have a look at Taliesin's 'The Battle of Gwen Ystrad', or 'Canu Llywarch' or 'Armes Prydien' (the latter being speculative IIRC).
Worth a read is Davies 'Welsh Military Institutions 633-1283'.

[Imperial Dave]

thanks for the references Rodge, I'll take a look

Interesting, diverging from the ford question for a moment, that you mention woods being another favoured defensive position. In my recent research in SE Wales, I have come up with a theory that a ford battle (early 7th C) was fought between Welsh and Saxons with a further battle being fought a few miles away on a defensive ridge surrounded by a wooded valley and perched atop a roman road!

My current thinking is that the ford battle was for denial of access across a river boundary (in this case the River Wye which is a large river). This was followed up either by a defeat and push back to the second position or that it was a prepared position of ambush.

[Patrick Waterson]

One aspect of fighting at fords is that the riverbanks would often be overgrown and allow concealment of moderate numbers of troops.  Hence when dealing with small to moderately-sized enemy forces a ford is a good place to jump them.  Large enemy forces will be less impressed as there is only so much troop concealment space near the ford - unless you can get them to send part of their force across and then bite it off.

Sensibe armies would of course scout the vicinity of fords before crossing.  Cunning ambushers would stay back and watch the scouts, moving up into ambush positions once the scouts left or signalled the all-clear.