What is the point of 16 ranks in a pike phalanx?

[Erpingham]

What emerges from the above is that the younger Spartans must have been able to leave rapidly and in good order, with no delay.  Also, in the instance of the mora attacked near Lepraeum (Exhibit 2), the polemarch begins by sending out the 'first ten-year classes' and subsequently expands this to 'the first fifteen-year classes', the latter apparently being standard practice judging by the other two instances above.  This indicates some flexibility in arrangements and hence an organisation capable of utilising some or all of the 'first fifteen-year classes'.
<snip>

My own surmise is that the younger hoplites were assigned to specific files.  This would allow them to leave the formation in a forwards or backwards direction at a moment's notice without disrupting the formation or requiring it to change composition to let them out (or back in).  The alternative of assigning them to specific ranks (as Roy suggests) is also quite conceivable, although this would require them to leave sideways and would leave them devoid of organisation during the pursuit unless an alternative temporary command structure and organisation existed for this purpose.

Either way, I do not see them struggling through the rest of the formation to do their duty: they had to be able to make a swift and clean break when the word was given, especially to be able to catch peltasts who had a lead of 'a javelin's cast'.

I agree we don't want to go over the earlier debate.  I mentioned this only for the possibility of movement with in the phalanx, while suggesting other circumstances in which we seek it.

But, to respond to you point, the only way it would work without the Spartans having to do some kind of reorganisation (even if it is closing up) would be if the younger age groups formed files on the outer edges.  If this was file based, the runners would need to deploy as they ran (remaining in files would be silly and inefficient for peltast chasing).  If the age groups were in ranks not files, the way to do this would be to stand in manoeuver order, the hoplites from that age/rank step right into the gap between files on command and run out.  Instant linear formationThe phalanx then closing up from the back and advances, closing up its frontage when (if) it needs to go to close combat.   

But even if we allow the rank hypothesis, I can't see how a hoplite phalanx could interchange ranks when closed up - not enough space.  I also think that any attempt to swap ranks in a pike phalanx with each man hauling a 6m. pole would be doomed to failure.

[Jim Webster]

I don't think that young hoplites were assigned to separate files.
Firstly the file was the unit and it seems to have been linked to the mess unit which had all ages in it.
Secondly having young hoplites in a file would mean that one or more files were less experienced and more lightly armoured.

Personally I suspect that Hoplites only closed up their formation in the final approach to melee, so that when the young hoplites are running out the formation is still 8 deep before half files close up to four deep, or 16 deep before rear half of the 'file' moves forward under its file leader to make the unit 8 deep.

That would be a far easier mechanism, making hoplites more flexible on the approach, and the drill to achieve it is simple enough

Jim

[aligern]

I argued, I thought pretty coherently, in an earlier debate here that the age groups were disposed in particular ranks in each file. Thus the general could command , quite easily, ranks five and six to run out. If the age groupings were not so defined then the commander would be running the risk that one file would lose most of its men, another none and thus the formation be unbalanced, let alone the difficulty of the hoplites having to remember and respond to a varying call for age classes.
There is another difficulty with having files run out. The file leader and closer must be the best men and thus the most experienced. We are asked to believe that certain files contained the youngest hoplites and thus had inexperienced file leaders and closers. That would introduce a weakness both military and social into the phalanx, so I doubt they would do it

If the hoplites are in 8 classes then they can be in five year blocks and each five year group of hoplites can form one rank. All the commander has to do is to call for particular. ranks to run out.

Roy

[Jim Webster]

Not only that but if Spartans were assigned to mess 'companies' so that all had a similar age spread, and mess companies provided one or two files, then each file could have men from all age bands.

[Patrick Waterson]

All of which makes sense to us, but did it make sense to the Spartans?  Or would the existence of instantly usable 'fast files' outweigh the (to us) normal and obvious consideration of putting the grizzled veterans at the front throughout?  A Spartan youth would be more highly-trained and probably even more combat-experienced than a veteran Athenian hoplite, so the best men in such a file need not be particularly aged.

If the age groupings were not so defined then the commander would be running the risk that one file would lose most of its men, another none and thus the formation be unbalanced, let alone the difficulty of the hoplites having to remember and respond to a varying call for age classes.

Given Spartan drill and training, and as Anthony observes the need to place such files on a flank for a rapid response, I see no difficulty memory-wise.  The risk of having one or more of the younger files weakened or wiped out would only apply if things went badly wrong, which was the exception rather than the rule: the incident in Exhibit 2 is the only one on record where things did go badly wrong, and there the entire unit ended up being reduced to a shadow of its former self, making any question of depleted youthful files rather academic.

Not only that but if Spartans were assigned to mess 'companies' so that all had a similar age spread, and mess companies provided one or two files, then each file could have men from all age bands.

Is there anything to suggest that they were?  My impression is that Spartans messed with those of similar age groups, not least because marriageable age intervened at some point, with all that that implied.

[aligern]

I may not have made the points clearly enough, Patrick. I would be against files being compised of the youngest hoplites for the following reasons.
1) The file leaders and closers have to be experienced men who have a deep understanding  of the drills and tactics,when to push and when to charge, how to double or halve files . They gave to have the gravitas to steady the others. That cannot be achieved by having one file in eight comprised  of juniors who will have speed, but not the staunchness required of leaders and losers.
Under your proposals complete files would be made up of juniors! How good are file leaders with only say two years experience going to be?
2) The supposed files of youngsters would emerge as a file and be in danger of the leader being tackled by two or three peltasts  if they decided to stand and trade or ran a while and then turned .

It is a much better model and more Spartan that the 6th and 7th ranks run out all at the same time  and all along the formation, presenting a consistent front to the peltasts or psiloi and driving them back.
My model has the immense advantage that the command that the general has to give is simple, it is rank 6 or ranks 6 and 7  run forward. How would the general order some files forward by age group? It is apparent that the age groups ordered out vary so he would need to order one file in eight or one in eight and one in four to charge. What command would do this?

Roy

[Patrick Waterson]

1) The file leaders and closers have to be experienced men who have a deep understanding  of the drills and tactics,when to push and when to charge, how to double or halve files .

This would be part of an ordinary Spartan youth's training, and in the Sparttan army would not, as far as I can see, require all that many years to acquire.  More important would be to select a man with judgement, and judgement is not solely dependent upon age.

Under your proposals complete files would be made up of juniors! How good are file leaders with only say two years experience going to be?

Probably very good indeed, with two years of active service under their belts, or kilts, or whatever. 

2) The supposed files of youngsters would emerge as a file and be in danger of the leader being tackled by two or three peltasts  if they decided to stand and trade or ran a while and then turned .

Or, if moving against an opponent on the flank, they might not.  The problem near Lepraeum was that they failed to catch the peltasts, and when they turned back they became easy targets, file leaders or no.  The peltasts would not stand because if they tried to then the rest of the hoplite unit would join in with great glee and much slaughter.

It is a much better model and more Spartan that the 6th and 7th ranks run out all at the same time  and all along the formation, presenting a consistent front to the peltasts or psiloi and driving them back.
My model has the immense advantage that the command that the general has to give is simple, it is rank 6 or ranks 6 and 7  run forward. How would the general order some files forward by age group? It is apparent that the age groups ordered out vary so he would need to order one file in eight or one in eight and one in four to charge. What command would do this?

Given the Laconic nature of Spartans, either 'deka aph' hēbēs' or 'pentekaideka aph' hēbēs'.

We may also note Hellenica II.IV.31-32:

"Then, sending ambassadors to the men in Piraeus, Pausanias bade them disperse to their homes; and when they refused to obey, he attacked them, at least so far as to raise the war-cry, in order that it might not be evident that he felt kindly toward them. And when he had retired without accomplishing anything by his attack, on the next day he took two regiments of the Lacedaemonians and three tribes of the Athenian cavalry and proceeded along the shore to the Still Harbour, looking to see where Piraeus could best be shut off by a wall.

As he was returning, some of the enemy attacked him and caused him trouble, whereupon, becoming angry, he ordered the cavalry to charge upon them at full speed, and the infantrymen within ten years of military age [deka aph' hēbēs] to follow the cavalry; while he himself with the rest of his troops came along in the rear. And they killed nearly thirty of the enemy's light troops and pursued the rest to the theatre in Piraeus."

[Jim Webster]

With regard to everything I've seen about Spartan mess groups, they were a wide spread of ages

Jim

[Patrick Waterson]

With regard to everything I've seen about Spartan mess groups, they were a wide spread of ages

Xenophon (Constitution of the Lacedaemonians 5.5) agrees on this point:

"Note that in other states the company usually consists of men of the same age, where modesty is apt to be conspicuous by its absence from the board. But Lycurgus introduced mixed [lacuna] at Sparta, so that the experience of the elders might contribute largely to the education of the juniors."

The key word concerning exactly what is mixed is missing from the Greek text, but the context does suggest 'ages'.

The next question is whether mixed messes mean mixed-age files.  Xenophon again:

"The prevalent opinion that the Laconian infantry formation is very complicated is the very reverse of the truth. In the Laconian formation the front rank men are all officers, and each file has all that it requires to make it efficient. [6] The formation is so easy to understand that no one who knows man from man can possibly go wrong. For some have the privilege of leading; and the rest are under orders to follow. Orders to wheel from column into line of battle are given verbally by the second lieutenant [enōmotarkhou] acting as a herald, and the line is formed either thin or deep, by wheeling. Nothing whatever in these movements is difficult to understand. [7] To be sure, the secret of carrying on in a battle with any troops at hand when the line gets into confusion is not so easy to grasp, except for soldiers trained under the laws of Lycurgus. [8]

The Lacedaemonians also carry out with perfect ease manoeuvres that instructors in tactics think very difficult. Thus, when they march in column, every section of course follows in the rear of the section in front of it. Suppose that at such a time an enemy in order of battle suddenly makes his appearance in front: the word is passed to the second lieutenant [enōmotarkhō] to deploy into line to the left, and so throughout the column until the battle-line stands facing the enemy. Or again, if the enemy appears in the rear while they are in this formation, each file [stikhos] counter-marches, in order that the best men [kratistoi] may always be face to face with the enemy.[/b] [9] True, the leader is then on the left, but instead of thinking this a disadvantage, they regard it as a positive advantage at times. For should the enemy attempt a flanking movement he would try to encircle them, not on the exposed but on the protected side. If, however, it seems better for any reason that the leader should be on the right wing, the left wing wheels, and the army counter-marches by ranks until the leader is on the right, and the rear of the column on the left. [10] If, on the other hand, an enemy force appears on the right when they are marching in column, all that they have to do is to order each company [lokhon] to wheel to the right so as to front the enemy like a man-of-war, and thus again the company at the rear of the column is on the right. If again an enemy approaches on the left, they do not allow that either, but either push him back or wheel their companies to the left to face him, and thus the rear of the column finds itself on the left. " - Constitution of the Lacedaemonians 11.8-10

Unfortunately he does not specify whether the file leaders are older veterans, but he refers to them as 'kratistoi' - the best or most capable - and not as 'presbutatoi', seniors.

[Jim Webster]

Actually kratistoi or 'the best' often means the aristocrats but I'm not sure about that in a Spartan context

Jim

[gridnash]

Dragging out Polybius, Book XVIII, we get:

In my sixth book I made a promise, still unfulfilled, of taking a fitting opportunity of drawing a comparison between the arms of the Romans and Macedonians, and their respective system of tactics, and pointing out how they differ for better or worse from each other. I will now endeavour by a reference to actual facts to fulfil that promise. For since in former times the Macedonian tactics proved themselves by experience capable of conquering those of Asia and Greece; while the Roman tactics sufficed to conquer the nations of Africa and all those of Western Europe; and since in our own day there have been numerous opportunities of comparing the men as well as their tactics,—it will be, I think, a useful and worthy task to investigate their differences, and discover why it is that the Romans conquer and carry off the palm from their enemies in the operations of war: that we may not put it all down to Fortune, and congratulate them on their good luck, as the thoughtless of mankind do; but, from a knowledge of the true causes, may give their leaders the tribute of praise and admiration which they deserve. - Polybius XVIII.28.1-5

He details the Macedonian phalanx thus:

Many considerations may easily convince us that, if only the phalanx has its proper formation and strength, nothing can resist it face to face or withstand its charge. For as a man in close order of battle occupies a space of three feet; and as the length of the sarissae is sixteen cubits according to the original design, which has been reduced in practice to fourteen; and as of these fourteen four must be deducted, to allow for the distance between the two hands holding it, and to balance the weight in front; it follows clearly that each hoplite will have ten cubits of his sarissae projecting beyond his body, when he lowers it with both hands, as he advances against the enemy: hence, too, though the men of the second, third, and fourth rank will have their sarissae projecting farther beyond the front rank than the men of the fifth, yet even these last will have two cubits of their sarissae beyond the front rank; if only the phalanx is properly formed and the men close up properly both flank and rear, like the description in Homer —
"So buckler pressed on buckler; helm on helm;
And man on man: and waving horse-hair plumes
In polished head-piece mingled, as they swayed
In order: in such serried rank they stood." - [Iliad, XIII.131.]
And if my description is true and exact, it is clear that in front of each man of the front rank there will be five sarissae projecting to distances varying by a descending scale of two cubits.

With this point in our minds, it will not be difficult to imagine what the appearance and strength of the whole phalanx is likely to be, when, with lowered sarissae, it advances to the charge sixteen deep. Of these sixteen ranks, all above the fifth are unable to reach with their sarissae far enough to take actual part in the fighting. They, therefore, do not lower them, but hold them with the points inclined upwards over the shoulders of the ranks in front of them, to shield the heads of the whole phalanx; for the sarissae are so closely serried, that they repel missiles which have carried over the front ranks and might fall upon the heads of those in the rear. These rear ranks, however, during an advance, press forward those in front by the weight of their bodies; and thus make the charge very forcible, and at the same time render it impossible for the front ranks to face about.

Such is the arrangement, general and detailed, of the phalanx.

Homer's actual quote is:

"... they that were the chosen bravest abode the onset of the Trojans and goodly Hector, [130] fencing spear with spear, and shield with serried shield; buckler pressed on buckler, helm on helm, and man on man; and the horse-hair crests on the bright helmet-ridges touched each other, as the men moved their heads, in such close array stood they one by another, and spears in stout hands overlapped each other, as they were brandished, [135] and their minds swerved not, but they were fain to fight."

Polybius has thus taken half his quote out of context, apparently to add to an impression he wishes to convey to the reader.

The point that catches our interest is this:

"Of these sixteen ranks, all above the fifth are unable to reach with their sarissae far enough to take actual part in the fighting. They, therefore, do not lower them, but hold them with the points inclined upwards over the shoulders of the ranks in front of them, to shield the heads of the whole phalanx; for the sarissae are so closely serried, that they repel missiles which have carried over the front ranks and might fall upon the heads of those in the rear. These rear ranks, however, during an advance, press forward those in front by the weight of their bodies; and thus make the charge very forcible, and at the same time render it impossible for the front ranks to face about."

Polybius thus gives us two reasons for the sixteen-man depth:
1) Protection from missiles, which is provided by pikes sloping over 'the heads of the whole phalanx'.
2) Impact and sustained pressure, provided by the rear ranks who 'press forward those in front by the weight of their bodies and thus make the charge very forcible'.

I think Polybius has got his arithmetic wrong. If a sarissa is 14 cubits long (about 21 feet), and 4 cubits of it project backwards (about 6 feet), then the second rank must be at least 6 feet behind the first. If not, they will most likely suffer very painful injuries to their knees or thighs. This is especially true in the jabbing model of sarissa combat. If the phalangite in front of you is alternately prodding his sarissa forward, then drawing it back, attempting to stick a moving target, the butt spike of his sarissa will be approximately as large a danger to his colleague behind him as the point is to the enemy in front. In the pushing-and-shoving model, the butt spike could be managed more easily, though this model might well have compensating drawbacks.

Anyway, mathematical logic suggests that the number of ranks whose spear points extend in front of the front rank depends not on the length of the sarissa, but rather on where the phalangite can best grip it. Let's suppose that the best grip is where 6 feet project backwards and 15 feet project forwards. Now, because the second rank must be clear of the rear projection, the spacing of ranks must be at 6 foot intervals. Therefore, 15 divided by 6 is 2 and a half, i.e. the spear points of the front rank and the next 2 ranks will project in front of the front rank. Now, let's double the length of our sarissai to 42 feet, but in order to maintain balance and a controlled grip, we now need to grip it where 12 feet project behind and 30 feet in front. Doing the same calculation again produces exactly the same result, i.e. 3 rows of spear points project in front of the first rank. The only difference is that the rank intervals between the spear points has now doubled from 6 feet to 12.

All this is just logic, but it suggests that 5 ranks of protruding spear points could only be achieved by keeping the rear projection down to 3 feet, which would mean 18 feet of sarissa projecting forwards. Someone needs to find out the weight of a sarissa and calculate how heavy and unwieldy it would feel if held in such an unbalanced manner. I guess it would be significantly more tiring than holding the Alexandrian sarissa of 14 or 15 feet and also it would be correspondingly more difficult to direct the point of the weapon at the desired target. Also, note that Alexander's phalangites still could not have managed to have more than 3 or 4 (just) points in front of the first rank.

Of course, all this is slightly off-subject. The question is why have more than 5 ranks. My guess is that they usually didn't. They might have doubled ranks in order to double spacing. This would be useful for allowing skirmishers to move through the phalanx between front an rear, for example. Alternatively, they might have doubled ranks in order to get through a narrow gap between an obstacle and their neighbouring unit. But when they wanted to get to grips with the enemy on the battlefield, I should think the need not to be outflanked would prevent forming up more than 8 deep.

[Duncan Head]

I think Polybius has got his arithmetic wrong. If a sarissa is 14 cubits long (about 21 feet), and 4 cubits of it project backwards (about 6 feet), then the second rank must be at least 6 feet behind the first. If not, they will most likely suffer very painful injuries to their knees or thighs.

I think you've misread it. Polybios says:

these fourteen four must be deducted, to allow for the distance between the two hands holding it, and to balance the weight in front

So you've got about two cubits between the left hand and the right, and only two cubits projecting behind you.

Which (if the files are perfectly lined up) goes neatly beside the man behind you anyway, not into his legs.

[Patrick Waterson]

Someone needs to find out the weight of a sarissa and calculate how heavy and unwieldy it would feel if held in such an unbalanced manner.

I think the accepted figure is about 22 pounds.  This would include (if I remember correctly) about 14-15 pounds of sarissa and 7-8 pounds of butt counterweight.  Held as Polybius specifies, it would be nicely balanced. 

Hellenistic engineers counterweighted everything they possibly could for ease of handling, the ultimate expression of this being Archimedes' ship-grabbing machines, which could be operated by one man (see Polybius VIII.8).

[Erpingham]

I think the accepted figure is about 22 pounds.  This would include (if I remember correctly) about 14-15 pounds of sarissa and 7-8 pounds of butt counterweight.  Held as Polybius specifies, it would be nicely balanced. 

A quick google produces a range of estimates and calculations from 12- 18 lbs (5.45 - 8.25 kg), most popular being 14lbs (6.4kg).  I don't know how accurate these are, but some are quite scientific (see for example Delbruck, who refers to the density of various different possible woods).

[Duncan Head]

Someone needs to find out the weight of a sarissa and calculate how heavy and unwieldy it would feel if held in such an unbalanced manner.

I think the accepted figure is about 22 pounds.  This would include (if I remember correctly) about 14-15 pounds of sarissa and 7-8 pounds of butt counterweight.

There is no universally accepted weight - it depends mostly whether you go for the Andronicus/Markle version with the big spearhead and thick shaft of uniform length, or the Connolly/Sekunda versions with tapered shaft and small head. Markle's 1977 reconstruction, at 18 feet/12 cubits, weighed 14.5lb/6.58 kg including 1.07kg buttspike and 1.235kg big spearhead. Connolly's (JRMES 11, 2000) 12-cubit tapering version weighed 4.050kg/8lb 15oz (including a similar butt but the .097 kg smaller Vergina spearhead. Increase as required for 14-cubit shafts.

The hetairoi at http://hetairoi.de/en/living-history/experience-reports/sarissa-experiment/ annoyingly don't give weights for their reconstructions.