Carthaginian Helmet plus ships

[Jim Webster]

An interesting article

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrodgers/2014/07/05/first-armor-from-carthage-romes-great-rival-found-off-sicily/


Jim

[Patrick Waterson]

Thanks for that, Jim.

Looking at the picture of the reconstructed ship's timbers and the original ram, has anyone spotted the mistake?  The ram should be flush with the timbers, but noticeably protrudes at all the edges.  Construct the timbers so they are flush with the borders of the ram and you have a ship 30-40% larger, and the 'smaller ships' idea vanishes.

I think the mistake arose from the idea that the ship's main timber fitted into the ram's hollow portion, leaving the ram's edges proud.  Classical artisans would have fitted the ram so it was flush with the timbers, the main timber that went into the hollow portion being planed down so the ram would sleeve-fit over it.

[Justin Swanton]

Interesting. In any case, what are reliable criteria for determining the size of a ship from its battering ram? I would imagine a ship and a ram can be pretty much any size their builders want them to be (within due limits).

So the Carthaginians invented the nose guard. I'm looking forward to seeing photos...

[Erpingham]

Interesting. In any case, what are reliable criteria for determining the size of a ship from its battering ram? I would imagine a ship and a ram can be pretty much any size their builders want them to be (within due limits).

So the Carthaginians invented the nose guard. I'm looking forward to seeing photos...

There is more detailed reporting of the archaeology, including the discussion about rams and ship size here :

http://www.journalofromanarch.com/samples/v25.Royal.pdf

As to Carthaginians inventing nose guards, don't Corinthian helmets have these several centuries earlier?

[Jim Webster]

I thought they mainly took ship sizes from the ship sheds and slipways that we have found?

Jim

[Duncan Head]

Thaks for that reference, Jim.

I've seen hints before that one of the Egadi helmets may not be a Montefortino, but that's the first description I've seen. It could be some sort of Thracian-Hellenistic style from the brief outline. The first coin here shows that Carthage used Hellenistic helmet types, though that one doesn't have a nasal.

What you don't get from the Forbes article, but is suggested in the Royal article that Erpingham linked to, is that the Montefortinos from the Egadi site are probably Carthaginian as well - some of them, at least, as one has a Punic letter scratched on it.

[Patrick Waterson]

Interesting. In any case, what are reliable criteria for determining the size of a ship from its battering ram? I would imagine a ship and a ram can be pretty much any size their builders want them to be (within due limits).

The idea behind reconstructing a ship from its ram is a) we have a fair idea of the general outline, proportions and even construction of the basic ship shape; b) given a more or less standardised basic construction, the ram would fit onto a certain size of timber.  It is a bit like trying to determine the height of an unknown helmet wearer from the size of a known helmet.

The problem comes with c), the assumption that the ram fits over the relevant bit of the vessel's anatomy in the same way that a helmet fits over a head.  To continue the analogy, if the helmet were a tight-fitting skullcap worn on a shaven head, it would correspond to the size relationship between ship's ram and ship's timbers.  Unfortunately the archeologists seem to have assumed that the relationship is that of a helmet worn loosely over the head.  The calculated head, or rather timber, size thus emerges as rather smaller than it should be.

I thought they mainly took ship sizes from the ship sheds and slipways that we have found?

Quite right, they did, and there was as far as I know no hint that warships were smaller than supposed - until this particular misconception emerged.