Middle Imperial Roman 15mm range research

[rodge]

Gentlemen,
I'm in early stage research for a 15mm range suitable for (roughly) Septimus Severus to Aurelian (following Duncan's observations below) so end date is c275.
I'm in discussions with a manufacturer who does an SoA discount and is showing interest to take this to market, and I am looking at sculptors.
Figures will be EIR Corvus Belli size and (hopefully) standard.
The purpose of this thread is to get 15mm figures that people want to play with. I'm not doing this for profit (unless you count having a slightly discounted 15mm Middle Imperial Roman army to fight with as profit).

Below is a first draught list of the proposed range (currently 2 poses per troop type, if the range succeed then its hoped this will increase to 3 or 4).

I'm aware there may be some contentious points on this list (mail hoods for one) so please comment about
a)   Anything you want on the list in addition to what is already there
b)   What you think is wrong with it (doubt Lanciarii will get mail/scale armoured figures and unarmoured ones in phase 1 release so please       comment on preference)
c)   Any pet hates and loves of existing figure poses etc. and
d)   If you have a favourite visual of a potential troop type please post it.

As usual there's many a slip with things like this so don't expect this range to appear quickly and, if I'm unlucky, at all. I will however keep this thread up to date on news.

The A&A 28mm range is a good yardstick for comparison when discussing figures i.e. this Legionary is spot one, this one suggests the sculptor should lay off the sauce etc. etc.

http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/categories/?c=3

Once there is a consensus here that enough ink has been spilt I will work out a Phase 1 release list.

15mm Middle Imperial Roman Figure List
Shields separate to allow minor figure variation and minor conversion.
Shields for FT/LHI/LI should be slight dished oval, semi circular scutum and round.
For Cavalry; oval, round and hexagonal.
Standards (vexillia and signifier) cast on or separate?

Spears/Javelins cast on but done to allow replacement (hand drilling and home made pin spears).
Horses will have a variation of equipment and pose per type.

FT   Heavy Infantry
LHI   Light Heavy Infantry
LI   Light Infantry
SI   Psiloi
HC    Heavy Cav
CAT   Cataphracts
LC   Light Cavalry

Command                              
1. CinC HC         

Heavy Infantry      Niederbeiber Helmet            
2. FT Leader               Mail
3. FT Leader               Scale
4. FT Musician                Scale
5. FT Standard                    Scale (open/drillable hands and do Vexillia and Signifier casts with caged eagle for II Parthica)
6. FT Legion V1              Mail
7. FT Legion V2              Mail
8. FT Legion V1              Scale
9. FT Legion V2              Scale
10. FT Legion V1      Late Lorica (Scutum as well as Oval)
11. FT Legion V2      Late Lorica (Scutum as well as Oval)
12. FT Eastern Legion V1   Mail Hood, Scale
13. FT Eastern Legion V2   Mail Hood, Mail

Medium, Light and Skirmish Infantry    (Niederbeiber Helmet unless indicated)
14. Lanciarii V1             Mail (double as LHI)
15. Lanciarii V2             Mail (double as LHI)
16. Lanciarii CO             Mail (double as LHI)
17. Archer V1             Mail Syrian Helmet
18. Archer V2             Mail Western style helmet
19. Archer V1             Scale Syrian Helmet
20. Archer V2             Scale Western style helmet
21. Archer V1             Unarmoured Bareheaded (double as SI Bow)
22. Archer V2             Unarmoured Bareheaded (double as SI Bow)
23. Palestinian Clubmen V1 TBD
24. Palestinian Clubmen V2 TBD
25. Auxiliary LI Jav V1   Unarmoured, Phrygian Cap
26. Auxiliary LI Jav V2   Unarmoured, Phrygian Cap (double as SI Jav)
27. Auxiliary LI Jav V1   Unarmoured, Pillbox Hat (double as SI Jav)
28. Auxiliary LI Jav V2   Unarmoured, Pillbox Hat (double as SI Jav)

Cataphracts, Heavy and Light Cavalry    (Heddernheim helmets unless indicated)   
29. Parthian CATs V1         Various, Parthian helmets
30. Parthian CATs V2         Various, Parthian helmets
31. Roman HC CO      Mail (Oval and Hex shields)
32. Roman HC Standard   Mail (Oval and Hex shields)
33. Roman HC V1      Mail (Oval and Hex Shields)
34. Roman HC V2      Scale (Oval and Hex Shields)
35. Equites Contatiorum      V1 Scale (No Shield)
36. Equites Contatiorum      V2 Scale (No Shield)
37. Moorish LC V1            Unarmoured, no helmet
38. Moorish LC V2            Unarmoured, no helmet
39. Dalmatae LC V1            As Barker book (A&EIR) no.39 inc helmet
40. Dalmatae LC V2            As Barker book no.39, inc helmet
41. Syrian LC V1       Bow, no helmet
42. Syrian LC V2       Bow, no helmet

[Duncan Head]

I'm in early stage research for a 15mm range suitable for (roughly) Septimus Severus to Constantine
...
15mm Middle Imperial Roman Figure List
Spears/Javelins cast on but done to allow replacement (hand drilling and home made pin spears).

Then you have to choose - pila or thrusting-spears for the legionaries? Ian Stephenson's book suggested that most C3rd infantry used thrusting-spears; the recent Legions in Crisis suggested mostly pila, but thrusting spears in use for special purposes. Ross Cowan's thesis on the Severan Field army (http://theses.gla.ac.uk/779/ - link now working) suggested front ranks with pila, rear ranks with two lanceae (separate from the light lanciarii with multiple lanceae). I don't think the Stephenson "third-century Roman spear-phalanx" has caught on amongst wargamers, but I could be wrong.

And if you're going up to Constantine, then you have Diocletianic legionaries with plumbata, in addition to whatever other throwing-spears they are carrying at that late date (speculum and verutum, if you believe Vegetius).

I'm not sure how late in the century you can push the Niederbieber helmet, either.

Any plans for artillery?

[rodge]

Then you have to choose - pila or thrusting-spears for the legionaries?
As I will drill out whatever is there I'm not that bothered, however your point is taken. What do you think Duncan?
I need to keep this as simple and plausible as possible & attractive to historically minded gamers without multiple variants (that cost to make).

And if you're going up to Constantine
Maybe stop after Aurelian?

I'm not sure how late in the century you can push the Niederbieber helmet, either.
Probably 260-70? Be good to add a spangenhelm type but thats another figure and associated cost.

[Duncan Head]

As for spears, I think going for the pilum, or a choice of pilum or lancea, is the way to go. I feel that the thrusting-spear as main weapon in the 3rd century is not a theory which has convinced all that many people - certainly doesn't convince me. Or do the lot with drawn swords, of course.

Dates and helmets: I see the third century as three periods - the Severans, the Crisis, and the Tetrarchic recovery. What with the Crisis being a crisis, I am a lot less confident about the appearance of troops in this period than the others. But if you say that your range goes up to 280 or so, not claiming to cover Diocletian and the Tetrarchy, that might be safer.

[Imperial Dave]

 For a start, good luck with this Rodge, its a great idea and you have obviously done a fair amount of work here.

For me, I cant comment on the armaments and armour that you have set out, the likes of Duncan are far far more versed and better equiped to give advice. The only thing I can add are gneric comments about the style of the figures.

I like a variety of poses (personally) to give a unit "life" and appear realistic rather than every figure looking the same. The other thing is that I am not a fan of "standing to attention" figures and poses as I think this is a bit lazy and doesnt look quite right to my eyes. Cocked arms ready to throw or thrust spears (or even in the act of throwing), heads turned this way and that, swords in the air, faces peering over shields....this is what I like for my figures. Its more prevelent these days but I still find I have to buy figures from several manufacturers to get a balanced set of different poses for my units.

Just a personal thought and obviously might not be for others

[aligern]

The big change in appearance is when the Romans move to the Intercisa style helmet. It sounds as though that most likely occurs when Diocletian greatly increases the size of the army. Suddenly a larger number of helmets is required so someone comes up with a much simpler design and that is then rolled out across the army as helmets come up for repkacement, or perhaps as new units are formed.

There was a debate about this on Roman Army atalk, many moons ago which, unfortunately became bogged down in some contributors desire to see helmets and armour on sculptural representations as being indicative of what the Romans actually wore as oppised to very often being either classical fantasies or a current helmet classicised until not really recogniseable. Of course there are accurate representations, but we often have to have an original archaeological find before us to recognise the helmet form in the artwork. Hence I suggest that helmets and armour representations are heavily skewed towards what is found rather than what is pictured..
Roy

[Martin Smith]

On the subject of the 'Corvus Belli size figures' mentioned by Rodge at the start of the thread, it has been noted (on www.fanaticus.org*) that CB are suspending production of their historical ranges. Martin Stephenson, at Vexillia, has acquired as much stock as possible, and is a current source, should anyone need to top up their CB based armies. Some stuff running out, apparently, so contact him to check before ordering, I reckon.
Martin
* in News and Notices, Discussion section, if yer looking

[Imperial Dave]

Thanks for the heads up re Corvus Belli, Martin. Just been over to the Vexillia web site to grab a few packs while I can!

[rodge]

As for spears, I think going for the pilum, or a choice of pilum or lancea, is the way to go. I feel that the thrusting-spear as main weapon in the 3rd century is not a theory which has convinced all that many people - certainly doesn't convince me. Or do the lot with drawn swords, of course.

I'll investigate this Duncan. May be able to offer both.

On another thing what do people like:
1. Cast on weapons
2. Open hands and weapons supplied separately
3. Closed hands for drilling and weapons supplied separately
?

Roy, thanks for the observations. I read that debate and I agree. If the range as advertised goes to 275 then people can use them later if they want IMHO but we won't be going to Intercisa helmets.

[rodge]

Thanks for the good wishes Holly. There's a hole in the 15mm Romans and I want to game that hole. So, here's hoping we can fill it.

I like a variety of poses (personally) to give a unit "life" and appear realistic rather than every figure looking the same. The other thing is that I am not a fan of "standing to attention" figures and poses as I think this is a bit lazy and doesnt look quite right to my eyes. Cocked arms ready to throw or thrust spears (or even in the act of throwing), heads turned this way and that, swords in the air, faces peering over shields....this is what I like for my figures. Its more prevelent these days but I still find I have to buy figures from several manufacturers to get a balanced set of different poses for my units.

Have you seen the Warmodelling EIR 15mm? They are a tad crude and on the large size but workable with/convertable and there are some OK sculpts of legionnaires shoving their pila over the top of their shields (no doubt a heresy). There are also some interesting poses in other packs:
http://www.warmodellingminiatures.com/index.php?id_category=17&controller=category&id_lang=1

[Imperial Dave]

thanks for the link Rodge! 

[Andreas Johansson]

On another thing what do people like:
1. Cast on weapons
2. Open hands and weapons supplied separately
3. Closed hands for drilling and weapons supplied separately

FWIW, I hate (and suck at) drilling hands. I'm fine with either open hands or cast-on weapons.

[Imperial Dave]

On another thing what do people like:
1. Cast on weapons
2. Open hands and weapons supplied separately
3. Closed hands for drilling and weapons supplied separately

FWIW, I hate (and suck at) drilling hands. I'm fine with either open hands or cast-on weapons.

I am fine with cast on weapons (although really chunky spears look odd!) and prefer open hands to drilling but dont mind the latter either!

[aligern]

One big question for a range such as this is the Auxiliaries, particularly the unarmoured ones. Those in Phil Barker's Armies and enemies are fine, tunic, trousers, Phrygian cap,sometimes Illyrian pillbox, but they are rather bland. Has anyone got any interesting variants for third century auxiliaries?
Roy

[Duncan Head]

Auxiliaries (non-archer auxiliary infantry, that is) are a tricky subject because I am not sure if there is any consensus on how much they differ from legionaries in this period.  Most recent works on the army seem to skirt around this subject.

There are the "many Moorish javelin men" used by Severus Alexander in Germany and by Macrinus at Nisibis (Cowan regards them as a regular part of the "Severan field army"), but as far as I know we do not have any description of their appearance or equipment. No doubt, like the Moor Macrinus, "one of his ears had been bored in accordance with the custom followed by most of the Moors", but the presence of one earring is not all that distinctive in 15mm.