Romano-British

[Erpingham]

Given the rate of decline of Romano-British cities, it is possible they start with civic organisation and militia and quite rapidly deteriorate.  So, it does depend on what period we are looking at for our post-Roman force.  It may, or may not, depend on who you consider your force to represent.   Is it something based around the established Romano-British aristocracy, who may rejoice in Roman titles and have Roman names, or something led by a Saxon warlord and his followers and how would they be different?  In practical terms perhaps not too different but in terms of creating a bit of interest and unique identity of the force, a great opportunity.

[aligern]

Most of the cities are well away from the regular activities of raiders. Walls would only need to be held until a field force arrived. Shutting the gates at night and having a town watch on guard would be enough for British towns.,As said earlier a town on the frontier would have limitanei or laeti garrisoned there as paid or semi paid regular soldiers, but I rather doubt that this holds in Britain.

I suggest that once imperial pay ceases soldiers leave very quickly.  No doubt some might stay, but to keep 500 men on a professional basis is going to take the economic surplus from 10,000 people
and that is a big town. Cavalrymen are, of course, more expensive to maintain. Much is made of the local commander who marries into the local gentry or establishes himself there by taking over land, but it is likely that he needs 50 men to do that not 500. Similarly much is made of the farmer soldier who is given land in return for military service, but unless there is some structure above them these men can easily just become farmers in their own right and it is a constant complaint of territorial based military systems that soldiers keep their land and do not turn up to the army.
So we should not see inland Roman Britain as being militarised before the Roman forces leave. To me, that is the reason why Civitates in the centre of England hire Saxon mercenaries and particularly why there is no central authority, that is because there is no army to enforce centralised government.
Agreed that on the frontiers of The North and the coasts of Wales there are federate polities that have a military force, but. none of them are strong enough to enforce their will across the province. Again, as said, it is remarkable that suchsmall forces of Angles and Saxons can establish tiny kingdoms and are not dislodged. Once we buy into the concept of the Saxon invasion being small scale. the achievements of a putative British Arthur are put into perspective. despite a suppised string of victories and a climactic win at Badon not one Saxon kingdom is snuffed out. It is quite likely that many new immigrants cross over to Gaul, but the Britons appear not to have the will, strength or unity to reconquer the land.
Because of the weakness of the British states I just don't see the Late Roman style infantry units with Notitia based shield designs so beloved of figure manufacturers and army list writers. (and don't worry I have a 15mm army of Romano British Auxilia and HC in a box!
Ro

[Patrick Waterson]

After all, the man on the ladder has to hold on to it and then grab the wall to get across whilst the chap on the other side is pushing the ladder over with a firked pooe ...

Am I correct in understanding this as a forked pole?  The alternatives do not really bear thinking about.

[Imperial Dave]

It may be worth considering the cross-guard spear in this, which must have been a thrusting weapon, and was around in post-Roman Britain. While chiefly regarded as useful in hunting, particularly for boars, it would have been equally effective in human combats too.

good point. Long heavy spears were favoured for especially hunting boar. If we take the 'militia' angle a bit further then mayhap the typical armaments of garrison and raw troops post 410AD (ish ) could have included a lot of things like the long spear. Use what you have to hand since there isnt a central government to arm the soldiery who as like as not mainly peasant farmers

[aligern]

Except that boar hunting is most likely something that the top chaps do from horseback! They will already have spears. as part of being a top person. A/S  cemeteies look to have  the spear about 7 foot long and often a pair of spears. I am not at all sure that all British free men have a spear  in the same way, but its probably true in the Western and Northern parts of the island.
I am exercised, however, by such events as the siege of Alt Cluit by the Vikings. The  rock is not huge, so no  large garrison, but there appears to be no relief attempt. if the Britons had a society with mass militarisation one would have thought that Strathclyde could have organised  an effective relief  when it's king was besieged.
If we look at the societies of Gaul, Spain, Africa and Italy, we do not see the citizens supplying military forces.  We have grown up in a world in which there is an universal duty of military service. Most if us will have been too young for National Service in the UK, but in other countries a universal call ip was maintained quite recently.  Hence we tend to think that it is the norm for all free men to fight. However, in other socueties this is just not so,certain groups  join the army, others just do not.nOne of the deleterious effects of employing barbarians in the Late Empire might well be that ordinary citizens had even less likelihood of having military experience.
Roy

Roy

[Imperial Dave]

as a stupid question, what length spear do we class as 'long'? 7 foot is to my mind straying into the long spear category and by a strange coincidence was about the length of my re-enacting spear (which I would not class as a javelin being both heavy and thick!  )

re the boar hunting stuff I presumed that although it was done both on foot and on horseback that the majority would be done on foot. 4th Century Spanish mosaic example below

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosaico_de_Las_Tiendas_(MNAR_M%C3%A9rida)_01.jpg

Also, as you point out Roy, the 'heroic' celtic areas of Britain would be possibly more liable to free men having some form of weapon. Whether this would be javelins, long thrusting spear or a mixture of both is up for discussion

[Patrick Waterson]

as a stupid question, what length spear do we class as 'long'? 7 foot is to my mind straying into the long spear category and by a strange coincidence was about the length of my re-enacting spear (which I would not class as a javelin being both heavy and thick!  )

This is actually a very good question.  My rule of thumb is that it is a spear at least 9' in length and too inconvenient to throw, but I would be interested to see what others make of it.

re the boar hunting stuff I presumed that although it was done both on foot and on horseback that the majority would be done on foot. 4th Century Spanish mosaic example below

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosaico_de_Las_Tiendas_(MNAR_M%C3%A9rida)_01.jpg

The crossbar is essential when hunting boar on foot (which was certainly the norm in both the classical and mediaeval periods; not sure about in between) because a transfixed boar thinks nothing of running up the spear shaft to treat you to his enhanced dentistry.  Hunting from horseback would not require a crossbar as unlike lions, boars are very poor jumpers and you would want the spear to go in as far as possible.

[Imperial Dave]

Not sure if I would want to hunt the boar from horseback. A quick eruption from a bush and suddenly the horse rears and you end up watching the boar from a reclining position!

Give me a dirty great spear and mine own two feet anytime! 

[Duncan Head]

Not sure if I would want to hunt the boar from horseback.

Not sure if I would want to hunt boar at all. But Persians and Thracians both hunted boar from horseback, and:

More recently, King Alfonso XIII attended regularly Doñana for pig sticking, with bags of as much as 17 wild boars among 4 riders. Many other royals from Europe joined him, on April 1927 he invited the Prince of Wales, later Edward VIII and his brother Prince George , later King George VI, and they also enjoyed pig sticking.

But as Patrick implies, the classic pig-sticker's spear doesn't usually seem to have a crossbar.

[Erpingham]

as a stupid question, what length spear do we class as 'long'? 7 foot is to my mind straying into the long spear category and by a strange coincidence was about the length of my re-enacting spear (which I would not class as a javelin being both heavy and thick!  )

This is actually a very good question.  My rule of thumb is that it is a spear at least 9' in length and too inconvenient to throw, but I would be interested to see what others make of it.

My rule of thumb is under 6ft is a short spear, over 9ft is a long spear.  In between its a spear   Roy and I are clearly working from the same archaeological recollection that the average A/S spear is around 7ft (throwing types like angons not included).  However, the sample size is pretty low.

[Anton]

If Koch is right in his dating and interpretation of Marwnad Cunedag we have some interesting information on how things stood around the Wall in 383AD.

Cunedag's boys fight on horseback (an encircling hedge of men and swift horses).  They seem to be in the employ of Bryneich and to have expected military support from the men of Bryneich who (were mustered into the lead of battle) but they were Cunedag's hounds his warband.  Cunedag seems to be part of the Roman military apparatus guarding the frontier and Koch believes he was slain by another part of the same.

There really is a lot to think about in the poem and what it tells us about late Roman Britain. Following from Holly's review I'm hoping to write something for Slingshot.  That said I've been making notes for two years on the Irish presence in Britannia. Time is the problem.

[Imperial Dave]

If Koch is right in his dating and interpretation of Marwnad Cunedag we have some interesting information on how things stood around the Wall in 383AD.

Cunedag's boys fight on horseback (an encircling hedge of men and swift horses).  They seem to be in the employ of Bryneich and to have expected military support from the men of Bryneich who (were mustered into the lead of battle) but they were Cunedag's hounds his warband.  Cunedag seems to be part of the Roman military apparatus guarding the frontier and Koch believes he was slain by another part of the same.

There really is a lot to think about in the poem and what it tells us about late Roman Britain. Following from Holly's review I'm hoping to write something for Slingshot.  That said I've been making notes for two years on the Irish presence in Britannia. Time is the problem.

we may have to compare notes! I have been looking at the Gewisse/Hwicce/Irish connundrum for 'Wales' in the past year and notes havent yet made it to an article

[Anton]

Sounds like a plan Holly. Perhaps one of us should start a thread on it and then we will benefit from other voices too.

My starting point in looking at this has been the much argued conversion of Ireland.  I'm inclined to see this as a political move that has precedents on other Roman borders.  The details are pretty obscure but I think its fair to say that the Irish go from being horrible raiders to fellow Christians erecting bi lingual monuments in Britannia. 

The codification of Irish Law texts seems to reflect some upheaval in Ireland as part of the process.  By Gildas' time he is referring to the son of an irish dynasty as bad son of a good king.  Given Gildas' world view that speaks to me of the integration of the irish presence in his world. Gildas' Irish bad guys are well in the past.

I think Christianity sealed the deal but its worth considering that there was no language barrier and that the two societies had long existing ties and a similar social structure.

I guess I should be looking for my copy of Koch's Celtic Encyclopaedia.

[Imperial Dave]

These are the threads I started on 6th/7th Century SE Wales and all the tribal interactions that could form part of this area of conflict

http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=1194.msg10582#msg10582
http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=1110.msg9226#msg9226

admitedly not specifically Irish but with Brecheiniog on the doorstep not wise to ignore!

[Patrick Waterson]

My rule of thumb is under 6ft is a short spear, over 9ft is a long spear.  In between its a spear   Roy and I are clearly working from the same archaeological recollection that the average A/S spear is around 7ft (throwing types like angons not included).  However, the sample size is pretty low.

A long spear might also be considered so because of relative rather than absolute length.  If one side is using short spears and the other is using 'spears ', the 'spears ' will seem like long spears, at least to the short-spear-using opponents.