DBA Army List References

[Dangun]

Is there anyway of finding out what the references are for the DBA/DBMM army lists?

Sometimes the lists contain quite specific details that must be the result of a particular literary or academic reference, but its quite difficult to look them up and understand them.

For the European armies, I would normally check the WRG books like the Armies of the Dark Ages, or Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars which sometimes describe sources. For the popular armies e.g. XYZ Romans the references are myriad and sometimes obvious.

But for the armies of the "Orient" there is no equivalent WRG book, fewere things to be referenced, and so I am a bit stuck wondering, "where did that come from?"

PS: I really dislike/feel weird about the use of the word "Orient" in this context - positively Victorian.

[Andreas Johansson]

The 3rd edition of DBA has a list of recommended reading for each list. They're not necessarily references, but they're something.

Phil does not, I believe, keep any particular records of where information comes from. He's been known to say he doesn't recall why something or other is in a list.

[Jim Webster]

I confess that I rather like the term orient, it merely means ' rising' (from the Latin) so it's toward the rising sun, as opposed to Occident which means setting. So technically (for me) Hull is the distant orient 

Interestingly the word is still used properly in terms like 'The Orient Express'

Jim

[Dangun]

Phil does not, I believe, keep any particular records of where information comes from. 

That's a pity. But I guess understandable, since it would be quite a job to maintain such information.

I confess that I rather like the term orient, it merely means ' rising' (from the Latin) so it's toward the rising sun, as opposed to Occident which means setting. So technically (for me) Hull is the distant orient 

For a native Latin speaker that might make sense...

But at some risk of distracting us from the main question of this thread... try asking anyone who lives in Asia whether they are from the Orient and they will either not understand, or suspect you are being rude.

To use "the Orient" to describe Asia, is peculiarly eurocentric and old-fashioned. By contrast, someone living in Asia is very likely to be quite happy call themselves Asian - at least in regards to the rest of the world. But for some reason, in DBx parlance Asia describes the Middle East which Middle Easterners might find equally confusing.

[Jim Webster]

This is getting way off track but Nippon as the name for Japan meaning 'the sun's origin' or 'the land of the rising sun' comes from Sui dynasty records and the Japanese picked up on it.

We all do it, defining people by whether they are east of west of us 

[Duncan Head]

But for the armies of the "Orient" there is no equivalent WRG book, fewere things to be referenced, and so I am a bit stuck wondering, "where did that come from?"

A lot of the time it comes from suggestions or discussions on the Yahoo dbmmlist or DBA groups. A few years ago, a lot of change proposals were discussed on the tabulae_novae_exercituum Yahoo list and written up on http://tabulaenovaeexercituum.pbworks.com/, but that has fallen into disuse. But as Jim has said, there is no "master list".

Anything particular you're after?

[valentinianvictor]

As various of the posters here have said, most of the lists and/or changes to lists are made by people who have a good knowledge of the particular list in question. Many such as myself have made suggestions to Phil, he does listen and if you can back up the suggestions with solid evidence then he will incorporate what has been suggested into the lists.

[Dangun]

Anything particular you're after?

Broadly, I was wondering about the South East Asian army lists in the medieval and earlier periods.
...except the Khmer list because some of the sources for that are kind of obvious.

PS: sent you an email on ntlw

[Duncan Head]

The Vietnamese lists are my work, mostly. The Burmese one I haven't a clue: I think the first DBM version may just have been translation from the old 6th edition list, but where some of the additions came from I do not know. A lot of the Thai stuff was from Wayne Watts via the dbmmlist.

[Martin Smith]

Was Dan Mersey's work the source of the Burmese lists?
Martin

[Duncan Head]

I'm not sure; I may be wrong, but I read his Burmese Armies booklet some years ago, and purely from memory I don't think it matches up very well with the specific info in the army list notes.

[Dangun]

A lot of the Thai stuff was from Wayne Watts via the dbmmlist.

Thanks. I will get googling Watts + dbmmlist.

[Imperial Dave]

A lot of the Thai stuff was from Wayne Watts via the dbmmlist.

Thanks. I will get googling Watts + dbmmlist.

just make sure you get it right when typing and dont put bdsmlist in error 

[Duncan Head]

Oh, that's the story, is it? "In error"?

[Imperial Dave]

ahem, indeed your honour..... 

Back on thread, I seem to remember back in the day, people were allowed to make their own army lists as long as they could show due diligence with some cited research/reading and then get treated on the merits of that. That wasnt to say that long established army compositions could be completely dismantled per se but that 'regional' variances could be argued for. For example I used to field successor state armies for 6th that had few Agema/guard units on the argument that a provincial army in, say, Kurdistan would not necessarily be of a very high grade of troop. Not everyone accepted this argument but my more regular opponents did and I extended the same courtesy back to them.

The point is that army lists are there to give a framework and that it shouldnt discourage people from doing their own research and refining lists.