Migration-era Germanic clothing

[Duncan Head]

As I mentioned, I've been reading Simon MacDowall's Osprey Catalaunian Fields. In the caption to the first colour plate, showing the Hun destruction of the Burgundian kingdom, he mentions that the Burgundian warrior comitatus are shown wearing loose highly-decorated overtunics "typical" of Western Germanic warriors. You can see the plate at https://ospreypublishing.com/blog/new_artwork_spetsnaz_panzer/ - the tunics have sleeves to just below the elbow and are worn over long-sleeved undertunics or shirts. In another plate, Visigoth cavalry have similar clothing visible beneath their armour.

Does anybody know what evidence there might be for this style of clothing? 

[aligern]

Intersting Duncan, All I have seen are long tunics with long sleeves  and applique (I think) embroidery. That is what is shown on the throne of Maximian, the Mosaics of huntsmen in Carthage and several other 'Gothic' illustrations.
There is a belt buckle in the Bargello museum in Florence which had the East German style long sleeved, long tunic with embroidered strips on collar, shoulders, cuffs , front and hem of wide trousers. Attribution was Burgundian, but again, nit an over tunic.

Dacians on the Trajan column have short sleeved tunics, not sure if they are over tunics, though.

I wonder if its a misinterpretation of the band of embroidery on figures that goes around the upper arm?

Roy

[valentinianvictor]

Looking at the link I have to say that the clothing looks extremely 'Late Roman' in appearance. Not that surprising as by the date of the battle the book is concerned about the Goths had been within the Roman Empire since 376AD and had access to Roman fabricae, as well as scavaged and captured Roman arms, armour and clothing from 376 onwards.

Here is a link to the captured Goths shown in the pen & ink drawings of the now mostly destroyed Column of Arcadius, you can see Goths in one panel on the Plinth base wearing mail armour on one side and unarmoured in just their tunics and long trousers in the other- https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=column+of+arcadius&safe=active&biw=1920&bih=932&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCoQsARqFQoTCMeiuYq8ksgCFUa0FAodKqIH3Q#imgrc=63-9osUrPuisHM%3A

[Duncan Head]

Don't see a very close resemblance, myself; I can't see 3/4-length sleeves on the Goths on the Arcadius plinth, nor any clear indication that they are wearing two tunics at all;  and I don't see the decoration on the Burgundian tunics in the painting as being very close to Roman styles - the "epaulette" on the red tunic at right, the band across the chest making an H shape on the guy in front of the house, etc. And I don't think the author is intending to show Roman styles either, since he specifically mentions Roman clothing styles on the Huns but not when describing these over-tunics - he seems to be thinking of them as a distinctly different style.

[Jim Webster]

Compared with this other illustration there seems to have been a change in style 

[Erpingham]

Compared with this other illustration there seems to have been a change in style 

Put a long sleeved linen shirt on under this guys short sleeved tunic and you'd get something very similar.

Question is, is there evidence of shirts under tunics?

[Jim Webster]

I do wonder if one tunic was summer, two tunics winter 

Jim

[aligern]

dWevmight first start with: Is there any evidence that the short sleeved tunic in the  Osprey  illustration is correct?  Putting a long sleeved tunic under it will only make sense if it is a correct style and that s what we do jot uave evidence fir.
As to Winter, I suggest that they wore a thicker tunic, perhaps woolmrather than lines or silk, and wrapped a cloak around themselves.
Roy

[Erpingham]

Well, Sidonius Apollinaris describes the franks having short sleeved garments, which suggests they existed elsewhere in the period.  No evidence of long-sleeved underclothes though.

[aligern]

A good point Anthony.
the Franks are described in Striped clothing are they not? I think that is different from the East German clothing with applique strips of embroidery. I take this style to be originally Iranian/ Sarmatian.Burgundians are supposedly East German

[valentinianvictor]

I've contacted Simon McDowell about this on another forum and he has responded- http://legio-wargames.com/#/forum/4537030389
I know Duncan apparently posted about this on TMP and got a very similar reply to the one in the link above.

So I was partially correct in my saying that the tunics are based on Late Roman designs, at least for the Burgundian's. As Ammianus stated that the Burgundian's claimed a certain kinship with the Roman's and were allied to the Roman's during the reign of Valentinian I then they may well have adopted some Roman clothing styles.

[Duncan Head]

Yes, TMP at http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=395431 - I  did think from the book that he was looking at something non-Roman, but Adrian was closer to correct.

[Jim Webster]

I've contacted Simon McDowell about this on another forum and he has responded- http://legio-wargames.com/#/forum/4537030389
I know Duncan apparently posted about this on TMP and got a very similar reply to the one in the link above.

So I was partially correct in my saying that the tunics are based on Late Roman designs, at least for the Burgundian's. As Ammianus stated that the Burgundian's claimed a certain kinship with the Roman's and were allied to the Roman's during the reign of Valentinian I then they may well have adopted some Roman clothing styles.

I suspect that a lot of the 'Germans' wore Roman clothing styles because they're the styles their 'Roman' mothers had been trained by their mothers to make

Jim

[aligern]

I am not sure how barbarians get to have Roman mothers.

Certainly contra What Simon s saying on TMP there is a fair bit of evdence for barbarian styles abd that clothing details  did indicate tribal affiliation,nthe Lombards with their white leggings,nthe Frankish striped tunics, Allamans in Agathias not wearing shirts, Heruos with wraparound cloaks ir jackets, Huns with Mutton chop sleeves. Of course there must have been lots of commonality and where  clothing was supplied its likely to have been a standard pattern from some sirt if factory r weaving community . Plus, as usual, the stated differences do not always pan out in the artistic representations.

But Roman mothers??

[Duncan Head]

Conquering warriors marry - or refrain from marrying, or indeed enslave - local women, and father children on them. It's a common pattern, to which I assume Jim is referring. Whether it's applicable to the Burgundian settlement I wouldn't know.