Swiss in French service in the 15thC

[rodge]

I recently read a thesis submission 'The Employment of Foreign Mercenary troops in the French Royal Armies 1415-1470' B.A Ditcham.
It mentions the use of Swiss mercenaries in the war of the League of the Public Weal in 1465 where Ditcham states 600 fought for the rebels (though I have read elsewhere that the Swiss fought for both sides).
Is this the earliest use of Swiss in French armies? I'm aware that Louis XI hired up to 6000 Swiss after the death of Charles of Burgundy for '1 year' and thought c.1478 was the earliest date.
I'm interested in tracking dates and numbers of Swiss in French armies 1469-1499 and whilst the later period is quite well covered I'd welcome any help on any these years.

[Erpingham]

It mentions the use of Swiss mercenaries in the war of the League of the Public Weal in 1465 where Ditcham states 600 fought for the rebels (though I have read elsewhere that the Swiss fought for both sides).
Is this the earliest use of Swiss in French armies?

Commines apparently says that these were the first Swiss in France.  Contamine gives the reference as Memoirs i. 48. 

[rodge]

Thanks
Do you know if there were Swiss in the King's forces as well?

[Erpingham]

Thanks
Do you know if there were Swiss in the King's forces as well?

Contamine only mentions them under John of calabria, who was on the Public Weal side.

[Andreas Johansson]

The reference i.48 isn't identifiable in either of the editions of the Mémoires I've got, but in what this online version would call Book One, ch. 6, we find this this:

He had four hundred crossbowmen furnished for him by the Count Palatine, all well mounted men who carried themselves like true soldiers, and five hundred Swiss infantry troops, who were the first to be seen in this realm. They were ones whose reputation prepared the way for those who came afterwards, because they conducted themselves very bravely in every situation where they found themselves.

"He" is John of Calabria, a leading rebel.

[rodge]

Thanks, thats a useful resource.
It seems the Swiss got into a little trouble according to Ditcham:

P151 Certainly when the crunch came in the campaigning round Paris in the summer, it was far from certain that the king had an overwhelming military superiority on his side.
Charles of France could field quite respectable forces and could even muster under his own Scots guard under Patrick Folcart and George Bannaytin numbering 13 men at arms and 34 archers , while the Angevin forces of Duke of Calabria were bolstered by a contingent of some 5-600 Swiss who, after the battle, were to be disciplined by their own authorities for aiding a rebellion against a friendly monarch.

[Erpingham]

He had four hundred crossbowmen furnished for him by the Count Palatine, all well mounted men who carried themselves like true soldiers, and five hundred Swiss infantry troops, who were the first to be seen in this realm. They were ones whose reputation prepared the way for those who came afterwards, because they conducted themselves very bravely in every situation where they found themselves.

This is the quote given by Contamine - must just be different numbering in different versions.

[rodge]

In 'One Million Mercenaries: Swiss Soldiers in the Armies of the World' by John McCormack (googlebook) McCormack says (with no footnote):
In 1453 a force of Swiss served with the french against the English at Bordeaux

Does anyone have any information on this?
I can find zip....

[Sharur]

Rodge: Looking at that Google Books item, there is a footnote, "(4)", appended to the end of the key text paragraph you mentioned, but the footnotes aren't in the available Google text online. The book looks to be out of print, but there are e-book versions available still via the Google Books page, or on Amazon, or you could do an inter-library loan for the hardcopy.

McCormack's text seems to be generally well-regarded from the online reviews (albeit there's little else so detailed on the subject, I suspect), so I'd hope the point would be referenced, though like you, I can't find anything in online searching before 1465.

[rodge]

Thanks Sharur; I think that the (4) may refer to the details of the 1450 Nuremberg contract mentioned just before it though.
I'll just keep digging and see what come up, however Nicolle's account of the campaign in 'The Fall of English France 1449-53' has no mention of Swiss troops.
I don't suppose anyone has a copy of McCormack's book and could tell us what the footnote says just in case?

[Duncan Head]

I don't suppose anyone has a copy of McCormack's book and could tell us what the footnote says just in case?

Nope, sorry. I shall just point out that the cheapest copy currently on abebooks.co.uk is £19.50 plus postage - http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=0850523125&cm_sp=mbc-_-0850523125-_-all

[Swampster]

There is a 19th century history https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CMPQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=swiss+1453+alliance&source=bl&ots=6Sy7J1LJ_r&sig=nu3_Z5v5QsR8mp_NR5WP-H-gVtY&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=swiss%201453%20alliance&f=false which says there was alliance between France and the Swiss in 1453 but that this was to establish good relations between the two rather than active military contributions. Perhaps this  has been inflated to providing troops?

[Duncan Head]

Ditcham has the answer, of course - I should have thought to look there sooner - The employment of foreign mercenary troops in the French royal armies at http://deremilitari.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ditcham.pdf

Through the winter [1452-1453] Talbot consolidated his hold on the region ... while Charles prepared a counter-stroke which would be decisive. Negotiations were even opened with the Swiss to provide infantry reinforcements to bolster the army; pay of five Rhine florins per day was offered, with a month in advance (a great change from the days when Charles had hoped to get his allies to provide men at their expense) . The Swiss were, however, at this time, far from keen on the idea of letting foreigners hire their men so the negotiations carne to nothing (77) and Clermont's army advanced into Guienne without this aid.

Note 77: B de Mandrot,  (ed.) Depeches des Ambassadeurs Milanais en France, Vol. I Paris 1916. p. 26.

[rodge]

Excellent. I had read that last week and not registered it.