carolignian shields

[Mark G]

I have been looking at a lot of period illustrations if carolignian and early French medieval chaos.

The all show the shield as both round and deeply indented, with a spiked boss.  And made of s shaped portions.

Yet are all described in text as just round.

So the s shape could easily be patterning to disguise the wood grain under.

But side on views always show a very deep curvature.

Which makes little sense to me.

Is that curvature just an artistic trope?

[Erpingham]

Not directly answering the question but the S-shapes have been explained by being overlapping leather panels, the "S" actually being two "C"s either side of the boss.

[Mick Hession]

A few of the shield bosses excavated from 9th century Dublin had curved flanges, indicating that their original shieldboards (which have long decomposed) were convex. There is therefore nothing intrinsically unlikely about similarly curved Carolingian shields, though I am not familiar with actual examples.

I've no suggestions on the S shapes, I'm afraid.

Cheers
Mick

[Mark G]

That is interesting.

That there is physical evidence supporting the deep shields.

Thanks

[Erpingham]

Re curvature.  The weekend has given me some time to look at shield reconstructions.  Modern attempts to produce curvature seem to focus on carving away the board.  This overall leads to a lighter and handier shield.  This does not give the extreme curvature of the illustrated Carolingian or Saxon examples however.  This either means that the another technique was in use or the shields were artistically exaggerated. 

For an example of a shield reconstructed by this technique starting with thick boards and hollowing :

http://www.millennia.f2s.com/reconstruction.htm

A flatter and thinner shield here :

http://thethegns.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/the-shield-from-bidford-on-avon-grave.html#more

Note in this case, thinning was done from the edges, giving the opposite effect to the previous.

[Mick Hession]

It would be hard to create the deeply convex Frankish shields that way, I think.

I'm no carpenter, but it strikes me as relatively straightforward to take individual triangular sheets of thin wood and bend them over a former by steaming. These could then be butted in one or more layers to form a bowl shape (with the "S" shape representing the seam of the top layer?).

Cheers
Mick

[Mark G]

Would a curved wedge be able to be twisted at the thin end?

That would give a shape s like, and break up the easy join line to aim at

[Mick Hession]

Perhaps, or maybe start with a slightly curved shape like a shark's fin?   

All hypothetical, of course: I am barely capable of screwing two blocks of wood together

Cheers
Mick

[Patrick Waterson]

It would be hard to create the deeply convex Frankish shields that way, I think.

This is speculation, but if one were to cut down a large tree (diameter about the same as the intended shield) and saw it into sections about 2' deep, might it be possible to adze and whittle these down to get 'bowl shields' with the amount of curvature shown in the illustrations?  The central heartwood would coincidentally and perhaps usefully be supporting the spiked boss, while the curvature would be quite deep.  The advantage of this arrangement is that blows with or on the central spike spread the impact around the curve instead of giving the user a lapful of splinters and cold metal.

The S-patterns would of necessity be from the leather coverings.  Because putting a hide onto a round wooden shield is something of a square peg-round hole exercise, cutting it into triangles or triangle-like shapes allows a closer fit, and the Stuttgart Psalter illustration shows what appear to be tacks along one side of the join, suggesting an overlap.  This takes us back to what Anthony mentions about overlapping C-shaped (or perhaps D-shaped) pieces.

[Erpingham]

For those wanting a quick visual reference to all the "S" shapes, this is quite a good gallery of types

http://www.vikingage.org/wiki/index.php?title=Round_Shield_Designs

We are talking about the various spiral types.  Note the spiral with dots but also the spiral with "triads".  These last could also show a design incorporating shaped leather pieces with rivets or studs to secure. 

On the hollowed tree trunk, I think it would be very difficult.  We know that where the shield attaches to the boss, its only about 8mm thick.  Thats a lot of wood to remove.  Steamed and bent "wedges" is more plausible, covered front and back with leather (which, as has been said, would have to be in pieces to fit the severe curve).  Other possibilities include moulded leather or even a wicker frame.  Overall, though, I'm not sure these deep bowl versions aren't artistic licence representing a shallower lenticular shield made by the carving down of thick planks.  This shallower convex shield seems more common to me in illustrations.

[Mick Hession]

Overall, though, I'm not sure these deep bowl versions aren't artistic licence representing a shallower lenticular shield made by the carving down of thick planks.  This shallower convex shield seems more common to me in illustrations.

though the curvature of the shields on the Pictish Aberlemno stone (shown in profile, but assumed to be round) is quite deep. As these come from a different artistic tradition, I think bowl shapes probably did exist though I agree that shallower shields are more common.
http://www.saintsandstones.net/stones-aberlemno-2013g.htm

Cheers
Mick

[Erpingham]

Good point about Aberlemno.  I was wondering about whether aspis making might offer us some clues?  Here we have a genuine bowled shield so similar techniques may have been used.  Unfortunately, looking at reconstructions by re-enactors and so forth suggests we don't really know how it was done and so use a number of very techniques for reconstruction.

[Duncan Head]

I was wondering about whether aspis making might offer us some clues?  Here we have a genuine bowled shield so similar techniques may have been used.  Unfortunately, looking at reconstructions by re-enactors and so forth suggests we don't really know how it was done and so use a number of very techniques for reconstruction.

I thought it was fairly clear that at least the Vatican shield, the best-known surviving aspis, "was constructed of 20-30 cm poplar wood planks glued together horizontally to form a solid block, then turned on a lathe to form the characteristic shallow dome shape ..." (http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/aspis.html).

[Erpingham]

I thought it was fairly clear that at least the Vatican shield, the best-known surviving aspis, "was constructed of 20-30 cm poplar wood planks glued together horizontally to form a solid block, then turned on a lathe to form the characteristic shallow dome shape ..." (http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/aspis.html).
[/quote]

Yes, I thought this (and it was what I thought might be the answer to the Carolingian question).  But there are certainly reconstructed examples based on concentric circles, others based on a multi-part outer rim with bent planks and even some made of a plywood of thin planks.  While some of these claim to be authentic, I don't know enough to judge.  Also, if they use techniques that can be dated back to antiquity, should we put them up there as possible (if unlikely)?