A VERY brief summary of the origin of the Scythians.... :-)

[Imperial Dave]

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.de/2017/03/where-did-scythians-come-from.html?spref=tw#TUTRR4QCBTXA6svA.97

very short but nonetheless an informative and genetically driven, hypothesis for the origin of the Skythians...

[Duncan Head]

The Russians are still measuring skulls? I thought that was a completely obsolete methodology.

[Patrick Waterson]

The Russians are still measuring skulls? I thought that was a completely obsolete methodology.

I think unfashionable rather than obsolete (Ahnenerbe and all that).  After all, the first thing our scientists do (well, probably about the 21st) when they discover a new old skull is to measure everything in 3D with lasers in order to build a facial reconstruction.

Using skull measurements for comparative ethnology is still considered a bit of a no-no in western circles, but it seemed to work well enough before being usurped as a Third Reich trademark.  As the man says, it is a lot cheaper than DNA testing (so you can guess what probably happened to his research budget proposal ...).

[Andreas Johansson]

What's obsolete is some of the theory that used to be used to interpret skull measurement.

(I forget the details, but apparently some cranial measurement that'd been used to track population movements on the step turned out to vary as much with your childhood diet as with your genetics ...)

[Erpingham]

I think this lack of precision is what causes problems with the continued use of the technique.  There are variations in populations, overlaps between populations and effects which may be cultural or environmental.  DNA may be more expensive but it is more precise.

[Imperial Dave]

I think this lack of precision is what causes problems with the continued use of the technique.  There are variations in populations, overlaps between populations and effects which may be cultural or environmental.  DNA may be more expensive but it is more precise.

undoubtedly.

I have read Stephen Oppenheimer's book on the subject of DNA studies for the origins of the British population and although not that old, it does feel outdated and superseded with more up to date information from more up to date techniques (eg http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/). So, DNA studies is where its at but with the caveat that its a fast paced sphere of knowledge in terms of measurement and interpretation.

[Patrick Waterson]

I think this lack of precision is what causes problems with the continued use of the technique.  There are variations in populations, overlaps between populations and effects which may be cultural or environmental.  DNA may be more expensive but it is more precise.

Back when childhood diet did not vary much between individuals, skull measurement was undoubtedly useful.  It will be inapplicable to late 20th/early 21st century populations, but perhaps still effective with the cranial characteristics of homogenous historic cultures wherein the constituent hominids consumed broadly the same diet (e.g. horse milk, horse soup, horse d'oeuvres, horse steak).

In essence, where diet was as much a part of culture as culture was of ethnicity, the technique would be effective.

[Andreas Johansson]

Back when childhood diet did not vary much between individuals, skull measurement was undoubtedly useful.

When was that? In ancient and medieval central Asia (the example I alluded to), nomads ate more meat and less grain than sedentary folk, and rich people ate more and better than poor people. The latter would be close to universal in our period.

[Patrick Waterson]

In ancient and medieval central Asia (the example I alluded to), nomads ate more meat and less grain than sedentary folk, and rich people ate more and better than poor people. The latter would be close to universal in our period.

This in itself would help with categorisation; accuracy of ethnicity might be slightly distorted by these factors, but it would be distorted on a consistent basis, which is all one really needs for tracking populations.  Cultural diets do not seem to have varied all that much (except between feeding and famine) until the 20th century, so the equation: diet+genetics = skull growth = ethnicity may be good enough for about 99.9% of recorded human history*.

An unsuspected era of MacDonalds, various ethnic restaurants and takeaway pizzas would of course call the technique into question.

*I close with the standard disclaimer that more work needs to be done on the subject.

[Andreas Johansson]

Offhand, I'd expect MacDonaldsization to have decreased dietary variability if anything. A BigMac is pretty much the same wherever you are - in the good old days, your diet would be determined to a much higher degree by what crops were grown locally, what game were lived nearby, distance to the coast or other fisheries, etc. etc.

And diets change - I don't know if there's been any skull measurements done about it, but, frex, in High and Late Medieval Scandinavia, meat and dairy lost ground to grain, which presumably is why average height slowly fell during the period (less protein => less growth). But if you didn't know about the dietary change, you might be tempted to think it reflected immigration by shorter-statured people.

[Jim Webster]

Offhand, I'd expect MacDonaldsization to have decreased dietary variability if anything. A BigMac is pretty much the same wherever you are - in the good old days, your diet would be determined to a much higher degree by what crops were grown locally, what game were lived nearby, distance to the coast or other fisheries, etc. etc.

And diets change - I don't know if there's been any skull measurements done about it, but, frex, in High and Late Medieval Scandinavia, meat and dairy lost ground to grain, which presumably is why average height slowly fell during the period (less protein => less growth). But if you didn't know about the dietary change, you might be tempted to think it reflected immigration by shorter-statured people.

yes a change in diet has had major impacts on the Japanese and that's since WW2

http://www.naturalheightgrowth.com/2012/10/13/the-changing-body-and-increase-in-height-of-japanese-women-and-girls-in-the-last-century/

[Imperial Dave]

interestingly article and I had heard of the earlier onset of puberty in women before. i hadnt realised that it was being linked to milk as previously it was observed as potentially being a side effect of heavier weight in girls. I cant remember the original source/article but it was mooted that when girls reach around 8 stone in weight they are liable to begin puberty.

[Patrick Waterson]

Offhand, I'd expect MacDonaldsization to have decreased dietary variability if anything. A BigMac is pretty much the same wherever you are - in the good old days, your diet would be determined to a much higher degree by what crops were grown locally, what game were lived nearby, distance to the coast or other fisheries, etc. etc.

Indeed, although few families live exclusively off the products of MacDonalds.  If however such an entity begins adding its repertoire to a locality where the populace has survived on local crops, local game and local fish, it will - or should - make a significant impact on local nutrition patterns.  Might this translate into different skull measurements? Will archaeologists of the future be saying: "Ah yes, this is a first generation Big Mac occipital accretion," or similar?

And diets change - I don't know if there's been any skull measurements done about it, but, frex, in High and Late Medieval Scandinavia, meat and dairy lost ground to grain, which presumably is why average height slowly fell during the period (less protein => less growth). But if you didn't know about the dietary change, you might be tempted to think it reflected immigration by shorter-statured people.

If however these shorter-statured people have the same skull measurement relationships as their taller forebears, such a mistake could be avoided.  With skull measurements falling into disuse, we presumably have no confirmation, but if some validation work could be done, we would know if we still had a handy and relatively inexpensive technique for at least preliminary studies.

[Andreas Johansson]

And diets change - I don't know if there's been any skull measurements done about it, but, frex, in High and Late Medieval Scandinavia, meat and dairy lost ground to grain, which presumably is why average height slowly fell during the period (less protein => less growth). But if you didn't know about the dietary change, you might be tempted to think it reflected immigration by shorter-statured people.

If however these shorter-statured people have the same skull measurement relationships as their taller forebears, such a mistake could be avoided.

Unless you find a potential source population with shorter stature but similar skulls.

(The obvious candidate here would be northern Germany - I don't actually know if there's any consistent differences in skull measurements, but it seems plausible there aren't between so closely related populations, and there was significant immigration from there in the later Middle Ages, which however mostly ended up in the cities, which were population sinks.)

With skull measurements falling into disuse, we presumably have no confirmation, but if some validation work could be done, we would know if we still had a handy and relatively inexpensive technique for at least preliminary studies.

I dunno how inexpensive it would be in practice - precisely because it's fallen out of favour, there's few people around competent to do it, whereas DNA analysis is increasingly routine.

The situation is presumably different in Russia, where the method seems to retained greater popularity.

[Patrick Waterson]

I dunno how inexpensive it would be in practice - precisely because it's fallen out of favour, there's few people around competent to do it, whereas DNA analysis is increasingly routine.

The situation is presumably different in Russia, where the method seems to retained greater popularity.

If only the twain could meet and establish whether DNA analysis validates the skull measurement conclusions.  If it does, then Russian measurements and Anglo-Euro-American DNA testing can establish a common baseline, making conclusions drawn from the less expensive system useful rather than contentious.

Will we get this cooperation and coordination?  Somehow I suspect there will be no rush.