interesting article on the 'end of Roman Britain'

[Imperial Dave]

The struggle for Kent seems to have been fought between the native lords and their supporters on one side and the foederates on the other, both no doubt claiming legitimacy. Surely Kent would be as Romanised (whatever we think that means) as anywhere else in the lowlands. Yet there they are going toe to toe.

I thought Jim Storr's recent book where he attempts to read the fighting through examining earth works from the perspective of a military engineer useful in thinking about what happened in Kent.

indeed, a very good and novel approach to looking at the whole issue of the SE 'takeover' by Angles/Jutes/Saxons and the like. Not 100 percent convinced as he is about it but I think it forms a good potential to what happened on the tactical level

[Anton]

His use of history is confused but we can probably take his military engineering assessment as being on the money.

On the south eastern take over thing I must have another look at Thomas Green on Lincolnshire 400-600.  Currently though I'm experiencing the photobucket trauma, I nearly wrote shakedown, so my blog needs some attention.

[Imperial Dave]

His use of history is confused but we can probably take his military engineering assessment as being on the money.

On the south eastern take over thing I must have another look at Thomas Green on Lincolnshire 400-600.  Currently though I'm experiencing the photobucket trauma, I nearly wrote shakedown, so my blog needs some attention.

Dr Caitlin Green's book on the subject is well regarded and its on the list!

[Anton]

A timely reminder, I'd forgotten, Caitlin Green.

[aligern]

There is a similar and unresolved problem in Gaul. Who are the 'men of Bourges'? Are they hired in Franks, with their leader becoming a local grandee, are they local 'tribesmen' even if that means  being small farmers  for whom tribe is only  a function of the city being the head  of an adminstrative area once the territory of a tribe and there now being no identity available higher than that.
Roy

[Anton]

I would guess they are similar to 'the men of Bryneich' who Cunedda fights alongside in Y Gododdin.  The locals who were able and expected to fight -tribesmen of Bryneich.  Cunedda who has his own court etc is provided for by a treaty.

Even in Y Gododdin there is a definite sense of belonging to a greater unit-in terms of Bourges I don't know enough to comment.

[aligern]

Indon't think there s any difficulty in there being a class if armed farmers in a federate groupnsuch as the Votadini. They are lije the Franjs in Belgium, land for service. Its the lowlands of Britain that may be more like Gaul where one expects a disarmed peasantry and federates being hired to,operate alngside the comitatenses of the landlords, who would be like  the paramilitary forces of the Egyptian landlords that Jim cited.
Roy

[Anton]

If anything Cunedda is of Dummonian descent rather than Votadini. The Votadini don't need land in return for service, they already have land, they want specie and high status goods.

The men of Bryneich are armed natives not hired outsiders.

I understand the comparison been made with Gaul and Egypt but how did such landlords fare in Dark's Martinian revolution in Britannia?  How do we get from them to Vortigern?

[Imperial Dave]

highlands are militarised and lowlands less so. The tribesmen in the highland areas tend to be armed and up for a fight more than the lowlands. Having said that the 'frontier' area of Hadrians wall is a special case with hired groups helping to maintain the border. A complex picture and one we should never try to simplify along racial or ethnic lines in my opinion

[aligern]

Thinking back to the men of Zkent cite earlier, it all looks very dufferent if there are only a few hundred Jute/ Saxons. In that case one does not need a militarised peasantry,nthe landdiwners and their retainers will suffice firva tough contest, toe to toe across the county.
Roy

[Anton]

That's true, but Gildas explicitly tells us that the original number were reinforced.

The ostensible reason for the revolt was inadequate anona to support the federates which doesn't sound like a problem a few hundred men would experience in Kent.

Nor would the earth works Storr identified fit the needs of fighting on the scale of a few hundred a side.

As an aside it is interesting that Kent keeps both its original name and Christianity.

[Duncan Head]

As an aside it is interesting that Kent keeps both its original name and Christianity.

If Kent keeps Christianity, why does Augustine need to convert King Æthelberht?

[Jim Webster]

As an aside it is interesting that Kent keeps both its original name and Christianity.

If Kent keeps Christianity, why does Augustine need to convert King Æthelberht?

which is a good question. Did Christianity survive amongst the lower classes?

[Anton]

Yes Christianity seems to have survived among the lower classes or at least some of them.

[Imperial Dave]

dont forget that what sources we have often keep their commentaries to the middle and upper classes.....lower classes arent worth the vellum or ink.....