World's oldest wine identified in Sicily

[Duncan Head]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/aug/30/traces-of-6000-year-old-wine-discovered-in-sicilian-cave

[Patrick Waterson]

Interesting.  Wine-making was already well established at the beginning of Egypt's 1st Dynasty (traditionally dated c.3,000 BC) ; I wonder how much further back the frontiers will push.

We were recently discussing what made a civilisation.  Perhaps wine-making is a useful new criterion?

[Imperial Dave]

the thing about wine is that it is very easy to make it 'by mistake' so to speak. The surface of grapes will often have yeast present so that fermentation can take place spontaneously once the grapes are pressed to juice

[Dave Beatty]

the thing about wine is that it is very easy to make it 'by mistake' so to speak. The surface of grapes will often have yeast present so that fermentation can take place spontaneously once the grapes are pressed to juice

Don't tell anyone but I've heard that US naval aviators aboard those irritatingly 'dry' USN warships used to make it by mixing a little grape juice with Tang and letting it sit under your sink for a week or two... of course, I wouldn't know about anything like that and no, you can't prove I was at Tailhook - I was nowhere near Las Vegas in Sept '91...

[Imperial Dave]

the thing about wine is that it is very easy to make it 'by mistake' so to speak. The surface of grapes will often have yeast present so that fermentation can take place spontaneously once the grapes are pressed to juice

Don't tell anyone but I've heard that US naval aviators aboard those irritatingly 'dry' USN warships used to make it by mixing a little grape juice with Tang and letting it sit under your sink for a week or two... of course, I wouldn't know about anything like that and no, you can't prove I was at Tailhook - I was nowhere near Las Vegas in Sept '91...

of course Dave 

[Mick Hession]

the thing about wine is that it is very easy to make it 'by mistake' so to speak. The surface of grapes will often have yeast present so that fermentation can take place spontaneously once the grapes are pressed to juice

I read somewhere that during Prohibition Californian winemakers sold bottles of "grape juice" with a prominent warning notice that the contents could, in certain circumstances, turn to wine. The notice then continued to explain in great detail what those precise circumstances were, and the order in which they needed to occur 

Cheers
Mick

[Mark G]

I believe there was a famous beer company which produced all you need to make your own at home for the era. 
Which may explain some European attitudes to major American beer and it's resemblance to the missing ingredient.

[Jim Webster]

I believe there was a famous beer company which produced all you need to make your own at home for the era. 
Which may explain some European attitudes to major American beer and it's resemblance to the missing ingredient.

I just assumed that the American abandonment of the horse explained that 

[Mark G]

Pretty sure you would need horses to fill the bottles, so it can't be that.

[Patrick Waterson]

Maybe we could steer this discussion back to the art of wine-making?  The gnat and the horse have no contribution to make to that particular process.

The Greeks and Romans may have noted, but as far as I know never explicitly specified, that where there was civilisation there was wine.  Barbarians drank strange drinks brewed from crops of various sorts but once introduced to wine valued it above all other things.  The downside of this was that having developed the taste they might just decide to move in to assure themselves of the source.

The motivation for the various Gallic invasions of Italy and Greece has never been satisfactorily explained by modern writers.  Perhaps the classical writers had a clearer insight into the motivations of these peoples?

[Nick Harbud]

I think I was served some of this stuff when I visited Sicily a couple of years ago....

[Patrick Waterson]

A good vintage, then.  Or at least a vintage (the very word is connected with wine).

[Duncan Head]

Even older wine than all the other "oldest" wines, this time from Georgia - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/nov/13/evidence-of-worlds-earliest-winemaking-uncovered-by-archaeologists