The Death of Britannia, or the Birth of Sub-Roman England?

[Imperial Dave]

here's a contentious one....

http://www.undergraduatelibrary.org/system/files/dissertation_for_ua.pdf

enjoy

[Mark G]

Don't be mislead by the title.

It is not current affairs.

[nikgaukroger]

Looks worth a read. Thanks.

[Imperial Dave]

Don't be mislead by the title.

It is not current affairs.

quite   

[aligern]

Most interesting. Do we know if the hoards have anything about them that indicates ritual? The continental burials do look as though they were the centre of an event and that other local bigwigs and the immediate lan if the deceased would gather to watch the burial and that there would be something worth looking at and presumably a memoreable piss-up. That's not unlike a state funeral today, or even one of those traveller funerals with horse drawn hearse, giant wreath with Mum in flowers etc. Digging a hole and putting a large lump of coins in it doesn'tb seem to have the same impact. In the Continental burials, or at say Sutton Hoo, the objects may not be the man's day to day gear, but it is the kit and accoutrements that a chief might use or horses he might own. Someone must have owned the hoard, was it part of a larger collection? did it actually have value?
I did wonder whilst reading it if the hoards could be votive offerings that were giving a share of loot to a deity?  After a successful battle or raid would the winners take the losers' hoard and dedicate a proportion to the god(s)?

[Jim Webster]

Don't be mislead by the title.

It is not current affairs.

[Patrick Waterson]

The thrust of the argument seems to be: Britannia was overrun by barbarian hordes and had hoards.  Other places were overrun by barbarian hordes but did not have hoards, or at least nothing like the same number.  Therefore - and here we encounter the logic chasm - the hordes deposited the hoards.

So - why did barbarians elsewhere not squirrel away piles of Roman precious metal?  The argument cuts both ways.

I have a suspicion that what it may come down to is: a) the traditional view is largely correct (Britannia was effectively abandoned whereas other provinces were still notionally under Roman rule despite the barbarian musical chairs; coincidentally the greatest number of hoards are in the areas first colonised by barbarians) and b) British citizenry are more diligent and perhaps even proficient with metal detectors than their European counterparts.

[Jim Webster]

The thrust of the argument seems to be: Britannia was overrun by barbarian hordes and had hoards.  Other places were overrun by barbarian hordes but did not have hoards, or at least nothing like the same number.  Therefore - and here we encounter the logic chasm - the hordes deposited the hoards.

So - why did barbarians elsewhere not squirrel away piles of Roman precious metal?  The argument cuts both ways.

I have a suspicion that what it may come down to is: a) the traditional view is largely correct (Britannia was effectively abandoned whereas other provinces were still notionally under Roman rule despite the barbarian musical chairs; coincidentally the greatest number of hoards are in the areas first colonised by barbarians) and b) British citizenry are more diligent and perhaps even proficient with metal detectors than their European counterparts.

this latter point may carry more weight that I thought

http://md-hunter.com/list-of-countries-where-metal-detecting-is-allowedbanned/

It makes the point "As a matter of fact, England takes first place in Europe, followed by Poland and France, in terms of the number of hobbyists involved in metal detecting."

Jim

[Imperial Dave]

points well made re the metal detectoring......huge huge hobby in the UK and there is stuff turning up all the time. I live in a heavily Romanised yet still quite countrified area and some days see 'hordes' of metal detectors out on the newly ploughed fields

[Erpingham]

points well made re the metal detectoring......huge huge hobby in the UK and there is stuff turning up all the time. I live in a heavily Romanised yet still quite countrified area and some days see 'hordes' of metal detectors out on the newly ploughed fields

The Uk has come up with a system balancing risk and reward for detectorists.  We have rules to control and legitimise detector use and rewards for detectorists and landowners.  Part of the "contract" is detectorists help control the actions of their fellows.  It doesn't prevent looting but it does put a brake on it.

[Andreas Johansson]

The thrust of the argument seems to be: Britannia was overrun by barbarian hordes and had hoards.  Other places were overrun by barbarian hordes but did not have hoards, or at least nothing like the same number.  Therefore - and here we encounter the logic chasm - the hordes deposited the hoards.

Well, if the author is right that the depositions were ritual in character, there's an important difference in that the Anglo-Saxons were pagan while their Continental brethren were mostly Christian when they took over the western empire.

[Jim Webster]

points well made re the metal detectoring......huge huge hobby in the UK and there is stuff turning up all the time. I live in a heavily Romanised yet still quite countrified area and some days see 'hordes' of metal detectors out on the newly ploughed fields

I wonder if we're seeing a similar phenomena to that we saw in the UK. Initially the Roman north was a military zone and the south was developed and had villas and stuff.
Then we had the A1M and M1 works done and suddenly rescue archaeology was turning up all sorts of Roman stuff in the 'military' zone which was distinctly civilian and the old North being undeveloped had to be reimagined.
Because the M6 didn't have the same archaeological effects, this can lead to claims that the North West was a military zone and the North East and the South were civilian 

[Imperial Dave]

points well made re the metal detectoring......huge huge hobby in the UK and there is stuff turning up all the time. I live in a heavily Romanised yet still quite countrified area and some days see 'hordes' of metal detectors out on the newly ploughed fields

I wonder if we're seeing a similar phenomena to that we saw in the UK. Initially the Roman north was a military zone and the south was developed and had villas and stuff.
Then we had the A1M and M1 works done and suddenly rescue archaeology was turning up all sorts of Roman stuff in the 'military' zone which was distinctly civilian and the old North being undeveloped had to be reimagined.
Because the M6 didn't have the same archaeological effects, this can lead to claims that the North West was a military zone and the North East and the South were civilian 

interesting thought and probably quite valid.....depends on the definition of 'North' I guess 

[nikgaukroger]

The thrust of the argument seems to be: Britannia was overrun by barbarian hordes and had hoards.  Other places were overrun by barbarian hordes but did not have hoards, or at least nothing like the same number.  Therefore - and here we encounter the logic chasm - the hordes deposited the hoards.

Well, if the author is right that the depositions were ritual in character, there's an important difference in that the Anglo-Saxons were pagan while their Continental brethren were mostly Christian when they took over the western empire.

But worth bearing in mind that the Franks were not until the late C5th, and that the part of Gaul they took over most closely resembled Britain in terms of the decline of Roman authority, imperial patronage, and institutions.

[Dangun]

this latter point may carry more weight that I thought

The prohibition against metal detecting in Cambodia, may be intended to avoid the accidental detonation of land mines.
It is already the land of amputees.