Could the Persian Empire logistically support an army several million strong?

[Jim Webster]

Fine. The point though is that the only big pile of amphorae shards lying around are at Testaccio, and they are there simply because they could not be reused. Olive oil was not the only product shipped in bulk to Rome in amphorae. So a lot of amphorae at one site - one of the Persian food dumps for example - will not necessarily leave a lot of shard fragments in the archaeological record. If Rome is our gauge, amphorae used to carry anything other than olive oil will largely disappear.

Remember that Rome has been built and rebuilt since the Roman period, as I mentioned elsewhere, amphora shards are commonplace in UK excavations

[Flaminpig0]

It is an understandable intellectual approach - there is nothing morally reprehensible about expressing an outlook based on one's own culture - but it is not legitimate for understanding other cultures at different periods in history.

I think, is that we must endeavour to recognise our cultural biases and seek to minimise their impact.

Would that be an approach that Herodtus would recognise I wonder?

[Justin Swanton]

The point about ostraca is that they were carried off and reused.  People made notes on them.  People wrote prayers on them.  People voted with them (Athenians could actually tell politicians to go away ...).  They did not hang around in situ waiting for archaeologists to find them (except when deposited en masse at the Tomb of Osiris or similar).

And the huge mountain of them in Ostia merely proves that the Romans were illiterate?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Testaccio

To expect assiduous note takers to come along and remove the largest heaps of broken pottery in Northern Greece thus leaving no archaeological trace is probably pushing the envelope a bit

The Wiki article makes clear that largely one type of amphora - the Dressel 20 - containing exclusively one type of produce - olive oil - was deposited at Testaccio. This appears to be because Dressel 20 amphorae that had contained olive oil could not be reused in any way: they did not make useful shards when broken up and they were fatty and rancid from the residual oil. The shard pile was carefully arranged and built up by the state. This is deliberate dumping, not just shard fragments lying around. There is nothing equivalent to it anywhere else in the Roman Empire, which suggests that shards from other types of amphorae used to transport other kinds of produce were reused in a way that left no archaeological traces. Which confirms Patrick's hypothesis (what can I say?). 

pretty well every Roman site has bits of broken amphorae,
http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue1/tyers_index.html for British ones
The reason there's no evidence of amphorae along the coast where the depots were is because nobody transported large quantities of grain in amphorae. You carried in in bags or probably more rarely, bulk.

Wine was shipped in bulk to Rome in amphorae and there is no equivalent hill of wine amphorae shards. I suggest that grain could be shipped in sacks or bulk and then stored in amphorae once at the food depot, the amphorae being sealed with resin to make them watertight. And no, I can't quote any primary source to back up the theory.

[Imperial Dave]

I may have missed it, are the amphorae reused for grain or made specifically for the grain Justin?

[Justin Swanton]

I may have missed it, are the amphorae reused for grain or made specifically for the grain Justin?

It's a theory, Dave. Since grain has to spend only a few days in a ship there's no need to store it in amphorae to preserve it, though it might make sense to keep it in amphorae that will go directly into storage once at the food dump site - which is also easier than trying the get the local Greeks to make an awful lot of amphorae. So, yes, in this case amphorae would be made specially for the grain.

The big question then is how big were these food dumps? What percentage of the army's requirements were they expected to supply, as opposed to grain brought over from Asia Minor by ship or provided by local Greeks?

[Erpingham]

Would that be an approach that Herodtus would recognise I wonder?

I think Herodotus was an intelligent and curious individual.  If a barbarian wanted to discuss the concepts behind writing history he'd be up for it, I think.  But whether he'd adopt it, rather than an approach founded on Greek cultural superiority, I don't know

[Jim Webster]

Wine was shipped in bulk to Rome in amphorae and there is no equivalent hill of wine amphorae shards. I suggest that grain could be shipped in sacks or bulk and then stored in amphorae once at the food depot, the amphorae being sealed with resin to make them watertight. And no, I can't quote any primary source to back up the theory.

Except we know that in Rome grain was stored in sacks, transported in sacks etc
It was never put in amphorae.
The idea of somebody producing in the region of 88 million amphorae and shipping them to the coast of Thrace to store grain in, when nobody else seems to have found the need, does look a little unlikely

[Jim Webster]

I may have missed it, are the amphorae reused for grain or made specifically for the grain Justin?

It's a theory, Dave. Since grain has to spend only a few days in a ship there's no need to store it in amphorae to preserve it, though it might make sense to keep it in amphorae that will go directly into storage once at the food dump site - which is also easier than trying the get the local Greeks to make an awful lot of amphorae. So, yes, in this case amphorae would be made specially for the grain.

The big question then is how big were these food dumps? What percentage of the army's requirements were they expected to supply, as opposed to grain brought over from Asia Minor by ship or provided by local Greeks?

I think it's agreed that there's damn all from the local Greeks, they'd struggle to feed the engineers and roadbuilders plus military forces already in palce
Egypt has no record of exporting grain in amphorae
But because an amphora tended to weight the same as the load as standard, a 30lb of grain would need a 30lb amphora which is about as much as you could handle easily.
I seem to remember calculating that the amount of grain that was apparently needed for the 6 million host would need 88 million amphorae

[Erpingham]

I may have missed it, are the amphorae reused for grain or made specifically for the grain Justin?

Different designs were used for different purposes.  For a grain amphora, you'd need something with a wide neck and quite rounded, I think.  But they wouldn't need sealing on the inside.  Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much out there on the internet on grain amphorae - wine, oil and fish seem to have been studied.  But I'd expect the amphorae to be fairly distinctive and, following common practice, marked with what they contain and whose business it originated in.  If they were specially made for this expedition, they might be marked "Great King's expedition" or some such.  If just ordinary commercial production, we'd expect a lot of exporters business addresses "of Tyre", "of Sinope" etc.

[Flaminpig0]

I seem to remember calculating that the amount of grain that was apparently needed for the 6 million host would need 88 million amphorae

[Justin Swanton]

I seem to remember calculating that the amount of grain that was apparently needed for the 6 million host would need 88 million amphorae

That's too much. A typical amphora used for transporting wine can hold about 40 litres. Grain weighs 0.79g per cm³ so the amphora can hold 31.6 kg of wheat.

An army of 6 million men needs 6000 tons of grain a day which comes to a total for a campaign of 6 months of 1080 000 tons of grain. That makes it 34 177 215 amphorae. Say 34 million amphorae. But this assumes all the grain is stored in amphorae and that all the army's needs are supplied from depots. Work on one of the three preparatory harvests (going with Jim affirming that extra grain could not be grown in the first year) not being in stored in amphorae - it has to last only a year - and 12% of the army's needs coming from the local Greeks and we get 34 million x ⅔ x 88% = about 20 million amphorae.

If one man can make 4 amphorae in a day he can make a thousand in a year (lop off a month's leave) and 4 thousand in 4 years.  So you will need 5000 labourers working about four years to make the necessary quantity. Add faff factor and make it 6000 labourers. These will be labourers all along the Mediterranean and Black Sea coastlines. Does that sound impossible? (don't all say yes)

[Justin Swanton]

I seem to remember calculating that the amount of grain that was apparently needed for the 6 million host would need 88 million amphorae

[Erpingham]

Is that a warning, Justin, or a threat?

[Imperial Dave]

could wine amphorae be reused for grain and vice versa (assuming the theory holds water....or grain)?

[Justin Swanton]

Is that a warning, Justin, or a threat?

Neither. It's stoic resignation.