More thoughts on longbow tactics

[Justin Swanton]

On the subject of depth, here are a couple of photos of longbow archers using what I presume are authentic poses when using heavy warbows. I've put a scale in feet next to them and have presumed each archer is about 5 1/2 feet tall when standing straight. They do seem to need 6 feet depth to shoot comfortably, and a minimum of at least 5 feet to not interfere with the archers before and behind them..

[Erpingham]

Justin, more graphic wizardry 

Could you put the one on the left (I've watched this video - that's a 130lb bow) side by side with a copy of itself?  He's pretty square on so this would show us how much play there is between ranks at a 6ft spacing and allow us to judge whether there is enough room.

[Justin Swanton]

Justin, more graphic wizardry 

Could you put the one on the left (I've watched this video - that's a 130lb bow) side by side with a copy of itself?  He's pretty square on so this would show us how much play there is between ranks at a 6ft spacing and allow us to judge whether there is enough room.

Here you go. 

For comparative purposes I've given spacings for 6, 5 and 4 feet.

[Erpingham]

Excellent.  Rather tight on 5ft but looking possible at 6ft.

Thanks.

[Mark G]

So are we actually agreed on an open 6 foot (+) spacing?

Or does Patrick still want to assert his 3 foot spacing?

[Justin Swanton]

So are we actually agreed on an open 6 foot (+) spacing?

Or does Patrick still want to assert his 3 foot spacing?

If the files were offset then 3 feet per rank would work fine.

[Patrick Waterson]

Or does Patrick still want to assert his 3 foot spacing?

If the files were offset then 3 feet per rank would work fine.

So yes.

[Jim Webster]

So are we actually agreed on an open 6 foot (+) spacing?

Or does Patrick still want to assert his 3 foot spacing?

If the files were offset then 3 feet per rank would work fine.

surely the area taken up by each man is going to be the same

[Erpingham]

I think there is some talk at cross purposes here.  Patrick cannot believe that the archers used a 3ft depth in their files, because it has been demonstrated comprehensively above that it is impossible.  He must therefore be talking about frontage.  The suggestion of Justin (which i think patrick is seconding) is that, if you offset the files, you create more room for the archers in each rank.  So, although the frontage is 3 ft, the lateral gap between archers is 5ft (ish).  With a 6ft depth, this allows the necessary elbow room.

[Patrick Waterson]

I think there is some talk at cross purposes here.  Patrick cannot believe that the archers used a 3ft depth in their files, because it has been demonstrated comprehensively above that it is impossible.  He must therefore be talking about frontage.  The suggestion of Justin (which i think patrick is seconding) is that, if you offset the files, you create more room for the archers in each rank.  So, although the frontage is 3 ft, the lateral gap between archers is 5ft (ish).  With a 6ft depth, this allows the necessary elbow room.

This would be the case if files were offset; I however see the ranks rather than the files as being offset (incidentally a property of a wedge such as we have been discussing), which gives archers the rearward elbow room which Kevin Hicks demonstrates is required by the full body draw technique ('putting your back into it').  Laterally, an archer can live with 3' of individual frontage because he is side-on to the enemy (12" to 18" frontage) and adds at most 12" of upper arm and elbow (for a 6' person) during the process of drawing.  Archers below 5'6" in height could get away with 24" individual frontage, but we can say 3' to be on the safe side and allow for handy arrows stuck in the ground, etc.  His more extensive rearward requirements (c.5'6" as Anthony calculated) are met by offsetting the ranks.

surely the area taken up by each man is going to be the same

Yes; the area occupied becomes a long diamond rather than a square.  In effect we lop the corners off the individual 3'x3' squares (asymmetrically, as 'right' triangles rather than isosceles) and add them onto the front and rear.  This allows our archers to have plenty of stretch forward and aft while they stand sideways-on to the enemy.

[Erpingham]

My apologies to the group.  Looks like we are back to total disagreement again.

Patrick, your space calculations are still wildly out.  Your offset ranks may allow six feet of space front and rear but only two feet laterally.  By your own admission the archer is 12-18 inches wide.  This just isn't enough space to operate in.  Allowing the offset to open the lateral gap and sticking with 6ft depth gives you room and may make it possible for three ranks to use direct shooting.

However, we seem to have passed well beyond the original discussion of command and control and we are stuck in the mud.  Time to discuss something else, either to do with longbows or in another topic altogether.

[Patrick Waterson]

Patrick, your space calculations are still wildly out.  Your offset ranks may allow six feet of space front and rear but only two feet laterally.

I do not see how this would be the case: if ranks with 3' individual frontage are offset, they keep the 3' individual frontage.  I was just pointing out that smaller archers would in theory need no more than 2' individual frontage.  My apologies if this appeared to state that a 2' individual frontage was used - not my intent at all.

Allowing the offset to open the lateral gap ...

My ranks are offset.  Your files are offset.  I am not sure we can offset both.

However, we seem to have passed well beyond the original discussion of command and control and we are stuck in the mud.  Time to discuss something else, either to do with longbows or in another topic altogether.

I thought tactical formation and procedure relevant to comand and control, but if Mr Clipsom feels we have played out the subject, we can bring it to a close.

[Justin Swanton]

Just for interest (before we leave the subject), here are some scaled diagrams of archers with offset ranks. There is a 3' space between the midpoint of each rank. An archer at full draw measures about 4 1/2 feet from arrow tip to right elbow. I've added scales in feet.

In this diagram the men in each rank are 3' apart. Rather a tight squeeze even with the offset:




In this diagram the men are 4' apart.




And here the men are 5' apart.

[Erpingham]

Patrick, your space calculations are still wildly out.  Your offset ranks may allow six feet of space front and rear but only two feet laterally.

I do not see how this would be the case: if ranks with 3' individual frontage are offset, they keep the 3' individual frontage.  I was just pointing out that smaller archers would in theory need no more than 2' individual frontage.  My apologies if this appeared to state that a 2' individual frontage was used - not my intent at all.

You have misunderstood my objection.  On a 3ft frontage, at least 12 inches is archer.  The gap between any two archers is therefore at most 2 ft.  Your offset ranks have a 2ft channel to operate in.  It's not enough.

Fortunately, Justin has produced a diagram that illustrates the point.  The most plausible of those illustrated is probably Justin's third one.   It also shows how you can offset both ranks and files.  You could certainly shoot two ranks directly in this formation, possibly three.

[Patrick Waterson]

I wonder if we could prevail upon Justin to redo the 3' individual frontage diagram with alternate ranks exactly behind each other (as they are in the 5' diagram).  At present they appear to be subject to drift.  I would like to see what difference this makes to elbow space.

I would suggest that well-disciplined archers could form up tighter than poorly-disciplined archers, and individual frontage in an archer formation may depend somewhat on discipline.

You have misunderstood my objection.  On a 3ft frontage, at least 12 inches is archer.  The gap between any two archers is therefore at most 2 ft.  Your offset ranks have a 2ft channel to operate in.  It's not enough.

Thank you for the clarification.  But is not the operating space for any given archer is not the 2' gap in the rank ahead but the 3' space in the archer's own rank?