Did the Macedonian Phalanx practise othismos with its sarissas?

[PMBardunias]

Just want to point out, if the 'Rich' was me, it wasn't me you are responding to but Justin. I'm with you on this one Paul, mostly!

Oops!  I blame the fog of written war.  I have a feeling though that we will all be on the same page in the end on this discussion where sarissa pushing is concerned.

[Justin Swanton]

My 2 drachmas:

A sarissaphoroi cannot push with a sarissa in the manner that hoplites pushed.  The reason has nothing to do with spacing, etc.  It is because the linkage between man and sarissa is no strong enough to support the force levels we see with hoplites.  You cannot grip a spear shaft strong enough to support a half ton of mass.

But it doesn't support half a ton. If five or six pikes are simultaneously involved in the sarissmos then each pike has to bear a maximum of 500kg/5 = 100kg or 500kg/6 = 83kg. A pole vaulter lifts his own weight with ease and the average weight of a polevaulter is 79kg.

Sorry Rich, that is not how it works.  Each file is putting out force. if the force were being transferred from a spear 5 ranks back, unlikely because all of the spears would need to be getting shorter as they go forward in rank, then the force from the 6-8th rank would not be passed to the 4th rank in front. You have to choose one or the other.  But the whole unit is free to push with less force, which is a low energy type of othismos as I stated. The limit is really on how much force a shield can take from the point of a sarissa before being penetrated. Othismos requires that both sides resist, and I would not resist enough to get impaled.

Rich would be nice.  To take Polybios' extreme case scenario of a pike phalanx in close order with 16 ranks. Visualise the five first men of a pile projecting their pikes all the way to the enemy shield. This they can do because they hold their pikes at the centre of balance (according to Polybios) which means they have six feet of pike projecting back behind their left hand (or possibly even their right hand.). That means that if the front two ranks - each with a depth of 18 inches maximum - hold their pikes forward of the CoB, the 3 ranks behind them will be able to hold their pikes behind the CoB and reach the enemy. Asklepiodotus' remark that "some, who wish to bring all the projecting spear-points to the same distance in front of the line, increase the length of the spears of the rear ranks" may represent a desire to facilitate this arrangement.

Now, with 5 sarissas stuck in the enemy shield, the 16 men of the file close up to shield against back and push. The 5th man has 11 men behind him pushing, with the pressure on his back reaching the vicinity of half a ton - say 500kg at the most. However he does not transmit all this pressure to his pike; most of it is transmitted by his shield to the 4th rank man, and 100kg or so to his pike. The 4th rank man has 400kg pushing his back, and he transmits most of that via his shield to the 3rd rank man with 100kg transmitted to his pike. The 3rd rank man has 300kg pushing his back: he sends 100 kg along his pike and 200kg to the 2nd rank man. The 2nd rank man sends 100kg to his pike and 100kg to the front rank man, and the front rank man sends that remaining 100kg via his pike to the enemy shield. It works.

I suspect pikes can easily handle this pressure since vaulting poles, originally made of wood, can handle the far greater lateral forces of polevaulting.

Now a caution.  It is not clear that a sarissa phalanx, formed closer can put out more force per square meter than a hoplite phalanx.  The problem is that the hoplite shields overlap much more solidly, which helps to synchronize the movement of men.

Phalangite shields overlap just as solidly. They are smaller but the men are closer together so there is the same degree of overlap.

It is unlikely that sarissaphoroi stood any closer than hoplites with their peltae forward. It is not a matter of shield size, but human proportion. The average man's shoulders are 45 cm wide.  You cannot stand and fight in a 45cm space, you need room to be able to move your arms at least minimally- something closer to 60cm. This is also why I am sure they stood sideways at 45cm. I have yet to see anyone actually stand front on at 45cm and fight.  Mathew's measurements are bogus, the men are closer to 60cm than 45cm. The closest you will get is the shoulder to shoulder 18th-19th C marching formations.

The manuals are abundantly clear that phalangites stood in files about one cubit or 48cm wide. A phalangite just needs to hold his pike close to his body which doesn't require any additional lateral space. 'One cubit' of course is flexible, but it isn't 60cm. The problem is that no reenactors to my knowledge have actually tried this - shoulder to shoulder, facing forwards with shields in front and overlapping, pikes presented over the shields. It really needs to be tried to resolve once and for all if it is possible or not.

In fact it probably arose specifically to counter any attempt at othismos by hoplites because you cannot push against a bunch of spear points and expect to live a long happy life.

And yet that seems to be exactly what happened at Sellasia.

It is not clear what happened at Sellasia.

It seems clear enough.

One problem with the othismos debate is that people seem to want a level of consistency rarely met by ancient authors in their descriptions.  We have two things that occuss between masses of men: pushing and herding.  From the inside of a formation they feel the same.  Those men a few ranks back at Cannae or in the battle Procopius describes where the dead could not fall, felt all the sardine packing of othismos, yet it is unlikley that the enemy unit was physically pushing them in a consistent manner.  Instead they were herding the men into a tight space and the men's own outer ranks were pushing in- I just coined the term auto-othismos for this.  Cavalry could do this to infantry for example.

Sure. This is surrounded infantry trying to fall back from their enemies and crushing against the men behind them. But this is a different kettle of fish.

Other times the opposing units are more likely physically pushing each other and transferring force from rear rank to rear rank, as in hoplite othismos.  Then we have what I think is going on in sarissa, where the rear ranks are pushing on their own front ranks, but the force is not being transferred above a minimal level through the pike shafts.

And yet it is precise the pressure from the men behind that ensures that the "phalanx's push against the foes does not become endurable."

The difference between these is based on a) resistance. If the enemy, or your own men give more than a step, you are out of the packed condition. 2) The ability to transfer force forward. Here the sarissa fails. c) the ability to survive being crushed. Without an aspis or some other equivalent (I would love to see how renaissance breast and back plates held up to crushing) you have to either give ground, or push back on your own rear ranks, signalling them to let up. Unfortunately for the men at Cannae, stabby things were more inspiring that the pleas of their friends to spread out.

I can think of two ways of refuting the sarissmos hypothesis: a) proving the phalangite pelta could not endure the strain of 400-odd kg of pressure, and b) proving that an aspis or phalangite pelta would generally be pierced by a sarissa pikehead applied to it with 100kg pressure. Does anyone have numbers?

[PMBardunias]

OK, I think I get it. Using Renaissance pikefighting as a benchmark, we are to understand the 'weight' of a jhellenistic pike phalanx in a metaphorical sense, in that the men behind, by crowding forward, oblige the men in front to fight, even when they can no longer use their pikes, being obliged to resort to their secondary weapon. There is no serious physical pressure as such, just some persuasive nudging. Is that about it?

This however strains the text of Polybios and the tacticians, who speak of physical pressure of the bodies of the rear rankers making "charge very forcible": the men "press on with the weight of their bodies." It's a real physical pressure, not just a closing of the back door to prevent front rankers from taking early military retirement.

Initially there is actual pressure. But the pressure is your own rear ranks pushing forward for the initial clash. On the collision, some pikes kill foes, more are probably driven to the ground (which is what I would do to get it out of harms way if it missed me). After that, the front ranks of pike are out of action, either in a body or shield, on the ground, maybe stepped on or broken, or unable to be drawn back far enough to strike again.  Some men surely just held their useless pikes, maybe they could still be of use in blocking incoming strikes.  But if Smythe applies to sarissa, then some men who were effectively the equivalent of renaissance rodeleros, moved forward to fight with sword and pelta. Or the pike formation loosened and foyning began.  Even if the rear ranks did not follow, the pikes on both sides helped to shield you from enemy pikes. I remember the first time I was in a phalanx and the spears came down, a pair to my right and left. They provide quite a bit of defense against strikes from the sides.

Or they just charged up to foyning range and spear fenced.  I believe both of these were options that occurred.

[Justin Swanton]

OK, I think I get it. Using Renaissance pikefighting as a benchmark, we are to understand the 'weight' of a jhellenistic pike phalanx in a metaphorical sense, in that the men behind, by crowding forward, oblige the men in front to fight, even when they can no longer use their pikes, being obliged to resort to their secondary weapon. There is no serious physical pressure as such, just some persuasive nudging. Is that about it?

This however strains the text of Polybios and the tacticians, who speak of physical pressure of the bodies of the rear rankers making "charge very forcible": the men "press on with the weight of their bodies." It's a real physical pressure, not just a closing of the back door to prevent front rankers from taking early military retirement.

Initially there is actual pressure. But the pressure is your own rear ranks pushing forward for the initial clash.

I would imagine that if a phalanx is moving forwards, there is no pushing of rank against rank at all - you can't walk properly when someone is pushing you in the back, and the fellow behind you would more likely than not trip over your feet if he got that close to you. Smythe has 'marching step with step' but that's not pushing.

[PMBardunias]

Asklepiodotus' remark that "some, who wish to bring all the projecting spear-points to the same distance in front of the line, increase the length of the spears of the rear ranks" may represent a desire to facilitate this arrangement.

As I wrote, it is possible to reach the enemy with all pikes simultaneously if this is done. But I do not believe it is thought to be, and this passage suggests is was not the common practice.

Now, with 5 sarissas stuck in the enemy shield, the 16 men of the file close up to shield against back and push. The 5th man has 11 men behind him pushing, with the pressure on his back reaching the vicinity of half a ton - say 500kg at the most. However he does not transmit all this pressure to his pike; most of it is transmitted by his shield to the 4th rank man, and 100kg or so to his pike. The 4th rank man has 400kg pushing his back, and he transmits most of that via his shield to the 3rd rank man with 100kg transmitted to his pike. The 3rd rank man has 300kg pushing his back: he sends 100 kg along his pike and 200kg to the 2nd rank man. The 2nd rank man sends 100kg to his pike and 100kg to the front rank man, and the front rank man sends that remaining 100kg via his pike to the enemy shield. It works.

I suspect pikes can easily handle this pressure since vaulting poles, originally made of wood, can handle the far greater lateral forces of polevaulting.

Eh, not so much.  Apportioning force between spear and shield in this manner is not realistic.  What is more likely is putting force through the shaft until failure and your hand slips, then the force defaults to the shield.  Remember, it is the lateral force that allows a pole vaulter to hold onto his pole.  I am a big dude, and I could not hold a 100kg pole with just grip strength for long. I have actually done this when using boat hooks- they slip through your grip.

The manuals are abundantly clear that phalangites stood in files about one cubit or 48cm wide. A phalangite just needs to hold his pike close to his body which doesn't require any additional lateral space. 'One cubit' of course is flexible, but it isn't 60cm. The problem is that no reenactors to my knowledge have actually tried this - shoulder to shoulder, facing forwards with shields in front and overlapping, pikes presented over the shields. It really needs to be tried to resolve once and for all if it is possible or not.

Of course we have done this.  Which is why I know it does not work. You cannot get to 45cm with an aspis because the width of your bicep is in the way, but even as close as you can get with an aspis is too close to use a spear effectively, and that is in one hand. At this density all you can use is a sword in overhand strikes.

Sure. This is surrounded infantry trying to fall back from their enemies and crushing against the men behind them. But this is a different kettle of fish.

This is my point.  It is, in fact, the same kettle.

I can think of two ways of refuting the sarissmos hypothesis: a) proving the phalangite pelta could not endure the strain of 400-odd kg of pressure, and b) proving that an aspis or phalangite pelta would generally be pierced by a sarissa pikehead applied to it with 100kg pressure. Does anyone have numbers?

As I said, the real problem is grip strength.  But here is the only data I have on aspis piercing, from De Groote.

[PMBardunias]

OK, I think I get it. Using Renaissance pikefighting as a benchmark, we are to understand the 'weight' of a jhellenistic pike phalanx in a metaphorical sense, in that the men behind, by crowding forward, oblige the men in front to fight, even when they can no longer use their pikes, being obliged to resort to their secondary weapon. There is no serious physical pressure as such, just some persuasive nudging. Is that about it?

This however strains the text of Polybios and the tacticians, who speak of physical pressure of the bodies of the rear rankers making "charge very forcible": the men "press on with the weight of their bodies." It's a real physical pressure, not just a closing of the back door to prevent front rankers from taking early military retirement.

Initially there is actual pressure. But the pressure is your own rear ranks pushing forward for the initial clash.

I would imagine that if a phalanx is moving forwards, there is no pushing of rank against rank at all - you can't walk properly when someone is pushing you in the back, and the fellow behind you would more likely than not trip over your feet if he got that close to you. Smythe has 'marching step with step' but that's not pushing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRRhC-h4ON8

[Justin Swanton]

If I can focus on just a couple of things:

The manuals are abundantly clear that phalangites stood in files about one cubit or 48cm wide. A phalangite just needs to hold his pike close to his body which doesn't require any additional lateral space. 'One cubit' of course is flexible, but it isn't 60cm. The problem is that no reenactors to my knowledge have actually tried this - shoulder to shoulder, facing forwards with shields in front and overlapping, pikes presented over the shields. It really needs to be tried to resolve once and for all if it is possible or not.

Of course we have done this.  Which is why I know it does not work. You cannot get to 45cm with an aspis because the width of your bicep is in the way, but even as close as you can get with an aspis is too close to use a spear effectively, and that is in one hand. At this density all you can use is a sword in overhand strikes.

This is for a 90cm wide hoplite aspis, with the hand within the bowl. Has it been tried with a 63cm or 73cm wide pelta with hand projecting beyond the edge (and angled up to your shoulder level)?

As I said, the real problem is grip strength.  But here is the only data I have on aspis piercing, from De Groote.

What units is the impact energy measured in?

[Justin Swanton]

OK, I think I get it. Using Renaissance pikefighting as a benchmark, we are to understand the 'weight' of a jhellenistic pike phalanx in a metaphorical sense, in that the men behind, by crowding forward, oblige the men in front to fight, even when they can no longer use their pikes, being obliged to resort to their secondary weapon. There is no serious physical pressure as such, just some persuasive nudging. Is that about it?

This however strains the text of Polybios and the tacticians, who speak of physical pressure of the bodies of the rear rankers making "charge very forcible": the men "press on with the weight of their bodies." It's a real physical pressure, not just a closing of the back door to prevent front rankers from taking early military retirement.

Initially there is actual pressure. But the pressure is your own rear ranks pushing forward for the initial clash.

I would imagine that if a phalanx is moving forwards, there is no pushing of rank against rank at all - you can't walk properly when someone is pushing you in the back, and the fellow behind you would more likely than not trip over your feet if he got that close to you. Smythe has 'marching step with step' but that's not pushing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRRhC-h4ON8

Fine. That's three ranks, front rank leaning back, second rank upright, third rank leaning forwards to clear the legs. Now try it with 16 ranks.

I suspect this is the only way it could be made to work. 

[PMBardunias]

This is far more likely. Notice by the way, that no one is being killed.  This would be a very low pressure othismos. The kind of packing that probably happened ephemerally in any ranked line combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1v0jB3OswM

[Justin Swanton]

This is far more likely. Notice by the way, that no one is being killed.  This would be a very low pressure othismos. The kind of packing that probably happened ephemerally in any ranked line combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1v0jB3OswM

Mmmmh...front rank stops. Second rank moves to contact. Third rank moves to contact with second rank, and so on. Entire formation, now stationary, exerts pressure on brick wall. After 15 minutes, individual band members are carried away in strait jackets for psychological evaluation.

[Erpingham]

What units is the impact energy measured in?

The axis is marked in Joules.

[Justin Swanton]

What units is the impact energy measured in?

The axis is marked in Joules.

Difficult to know how to translate that into weight x cross-section of pikehead.

[PMBardunias]

This is far more likely. Notice by the way, that no one is being killed.  This would be a very low pressure othismos. The kind of packing that probably happened ephemerally in any ranked line combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1v0jB3OswM

Mmmmh...front rank stops. Second rank moves to contact. Third rank moves to contact with second rank, and so on. Entire formation, now stationary, exerts pressure on brick wall. After 15 minutes, individual band members are carried away in strait jackets for psychological evaluation.

Yep, that is othismos. No rank is ever pushed into spears as in the old Hanson-Schwartz style charge into spear points.

[Dangun]

If you understood my position on what othismos was, then my surety in its existence in a Macedonian context is all but banal. 

Excuse me, I had to read that a couple of times.
But did you just say that if only I understood your position then I would agree with you?

And you wonder why academics don't engage with re-enactors.

The basic problem remains that if we can't convincingly understand what othismos meant - or what historical battlefield behaviour was, then it is very difficult to draw conclusions about history from re-enactment. No matter how interesting it is.

[PMBardunias]

If you understood my position on what othismos was, then my surety in its existence in a Macedonian context is all but banal. 

Excuse me, I had to read that a couple of times.
But did you just say that if only I understood your position then I would agree with you?

And you wonder why academics don't engage with re-enactors.

The basic problem remains that if we can't convincingly understand what othismos meant - or what historical battlefield behaviour was, then it is very difficult to draw conclusions about history from re-enactment. No matter how interesting it is.

I make no claim about you agreeing with anything. Only that if you forget everything you ever read about othismos, most of which is based on a faulty understanding of how groups of men generate pressure, and understand my presentation of othismos as a state of crowding together of men in close combat, then imagining sarissaphoroi is othismos is not a controversial statement. Such crowding occurs in any group of men who are massed fighting another mass of men due to the rear ranks moving forward.  What differs is not the state, but the amount of force projected along a specific vector.  For example, all of the men can try to move a step forward in random directions, which essentially leads to Brownian diffusion. This could occur under panic conditions, but more likely is that the men try to move along a shared vector.  The most obvious is a rout, where the vector of the men is away from the enemy line. Because there is no boundary behind them, the army disperses. Men entering combat on the other hand have a shared movement vector towards the enemy line.  This causes ranks to bunch up- much like the marching band in animal house linked to above. In the tearless battle, Spartans were doing this even before they advanced and had to be told to seperate. Once the opposing lines meet, the forward progress of both is halted.  At this point the ranks behind have to pull up short to give them room to fight. If they do not, then the front ranks themselves have to nudge back against their own rear ranks to get them to back off.

Where the state of othismos begins, it is a noun, not a verb, is when the rear ranks move up tight in support. At first in hoplites, this is only the second rank, closing up on the first to help protect the front line men with their spears.  But when the combat moves to shield on shield and the fight goes to short swords or long knives, the rear ranks of all files close. This is probably universal in linear combat with all but the most disciplined forces. Again, if the front lines need more room to fight, they can nudge back on their own ranks and hopefully they respond by moving back.  You may also want a couple ranks close behind you to act as a wall at your back, so your foe cannot knock you back. But if you are a hoplite, with an aspis that we have shown can keep you completely safe under high levels of compression, then you can allow all of the men in your file to pack against you while you fight with your sword in your free right arm. Unless your foe also has such support, he cannot stand up to you and has to give ground.  Giving ground on a hoplite battlefield is what defines victory and the site of the Tropaeon, so his men break and run and you win.

Pretty straightforward really when you understand how crowds generate force. I think everything up to the last part, where huge pressure is exerted is not to controverial.  The last part, as I have always contended, cannot be proven without a time machine.  But if we accept that there was an othismos that involved pushing, this is surely how it happened. I would argue that those who try to show othismos was a "state of hard fighting", shield on shield, maybe with some localized pushing, but not as a whole unit, would have to explain why the whole unit did not join in.  Traditionally, as you yourself suggested, they have said that the front ranks would get crushed.  With an aspis, this is simply not the case. The mechanical properties of wood and bronze as well as human flesh have not changed in the last few thousand years.

As both an academic and a reenactor, I don't find myself self-conflicted.