Testing hoplite combat

[Erpingham]

This was the position for Partisan.

It is very reminiscent of medieval pictures of battles, with little clumps of men representing the armies and the weapons just crossing before it decends into the press.

[RichT]

The position with crossed spears (pikes) reminds me of the quote we talked abut before:

"In their array towards the joining with the enemy, they cling and thrust so near in the fore rank, shoulder to shoulder together with their pikes in both hands straight afore them; and their followers in that order so hard at their backs, laying their pikes over their foregoers shoulders that they do assail undissevered, no force can withstand them. Standing at the defence, they thrust their shoulders likewise so nigh together; the fore rank so well nigh to kneeling, stoop low before their fellows behind holding their pikes in both hands and therewith on their left arms their bucklers, the one end of the pike against their right foot, the other against the enemy breast high, their followers crossing their pike points with them forward; and thus each with the other so nigh as place and space will suffer, through the whole Ward so thick that easily should a bare finger pierce through the skin of an angry hedgehog, as any encounter the front of their pikes." William Patten, The Expedicion into Scotlande

I notice nobody in Paul's picture has shields, unless I'm not seeing them.

[Justin Swanton]

I notice nobody in Paul's picture has shields, unless I'm not seeing them.

True enough. Did anyone try it with shields?

[Erpingham]

The position with crossed spears (pikes) reminds me of the quote we talked abut before

Though, in that case, we could interpret it as a standard renaissance drill, with all pikes held at chest height on the offensive but the front rank crouching on the defensive and bracing with the right foot.

I believe Justin's innovation is a low horizontal hold for the front rank and a high hold for subsequent ranks (probably several more than in the picture because of the longer weapon).  Justin also advocates the "pole vaulter" grip -front hand on top of pike, back hand underneath - as opposed to the renaissance grip - front hand under, back hand over.  I think the people in the picture are using Justin's grip but can't be sure.

[Justin Swanton]

The position with crossed spears (pikes) reminds me of the quote we talked abut before

Though, in that case, we could interpret it as a standard renaissance drill, with all pikes held at chest height on the offensive but the front rank crouching on the defensive and bracing with the right foot.

I believe Justin's innovation is a low horizontal hold for the front rank and a high hold for subsequent ranks (probably several more than in the picture because of the longer weapon).  Justin also advocates the "pole vaulter" grip -front hand on top of pike, back hand underneath - as opposed to the renaissance grip - front hand under, back hand over.  I think the people in the picture are using Justin's grip but can't be sure.

Following on your earlier remark about the grip, I agree that you can't hold a pike at a 45 degree angle with a polevaulter grip, but only horizontally. However it is quite easy (I tried it) to hold the pike with both hands above the pikeshaft and then tilt it at any angle. The left hand acts as a fulcrum supported by the shield and telamon, whilst the right hand can swivel the pike up and down at any angle. So, theoretically, the ranks presenting their pikes horizontally could hold them using the polevaulter grip, whilst the ranks behind them could hold their pikes with the double overhand grip and angle their pikes above the heads of the ranks in front. I find the polevaulter grip better than the double overhand grip for thrusting the pike at the enemy.

[RichT]

I'm losing track of what grips we are talking about. As I understand it, there are:

Pike in low position (waist height):
Standard grip - back hand on top of pike, front hand underneath
Polevaulter grip - both hands on top

Pike in high position (shoulder height):
Renaissance grip - both hands on top

So 'Renaissance grip' is the same as Polevaulter grip, just with the pike held high. I suppose a high hold with front hand under pike is also possible.

But Justin seems to be using polevaulter in some other sense. A picture or too might be worth a thousand or so words.

[PMBardunias]

This was a medieval partisan fight, so no shields.

[Erpingham]

Renaissance grip is fore hand under, back hand over


Pole vaulter starts like this - forehand over, backhand under.


But the pole is raised like this - the rear hand moves to over.


For what it is worth, medieval and early renaissance pictures show both styles used with polearms e.g.



The renaissance one is probably a reflection of standardisation of drill.

[RichT]

Ah thank you Anthony - it looks as if I have been misusing 'polvaulter' then as I took it to mean both hands over, that's annoying. Though looking at your pole vaulter pictures (and their source on https://www.everythingtrackandfield.com/npvca-curriculum-4) I don't agree with your "But the pole is raised like this - the rear hand moves to over" - I think the rear hand remains under ('palm up' may be clearer) - I don't think there's a change in grip, the hands are just raised and the right thumb remains pointing backwards.





So to define terms some more:
- 'over' = palm down = left thumb backward, right thumb forward
- 'under' = palm up = left thumb forward, right thumb backward
- 'low' = spear at waist height
- 'high' = spear at shoulder height

Then:
'Standard spear grip' = low, left hand under, right hand over
'Polevaulter' = low or high, left hand over, right hand under
'Renaissance' = high, left hand under, right hand over
'Misunderstood Polevaulter' = low or high, left hand over, right hand over

'Renaissance' is then just a high version of 'standard'. From some impromptu tests with a rake, all grips seem pretty interchangeable and it's simple to switch between them (less simple perhaps with a 6 metre sarissa). Also the Renaissance grip feels most awkward as the left arm is quite uncomfortable with a limited range of movement - 'high misunderstood polevaulter' feels to me a lot more natural. However I dare say they knew what they were about...

[Erpingham]

I think the length/weight of the pike is the missing factor in the rake experiment.  The "renaissance" grip is not really designed for much pike movement.  The left arm is braced against the body for solidity and, importantly, helping support the pike weight.  This may have been less of an issue for a successor pikeman, as according to some theories, they were counterweighted.

[RichT]

True, and there's not much I can do about length without getting a real pike, but weight is supplied by a dangling brick

One finding is that the right arm out straight behind of the Renaissance grip more or less requires an under hold, as over is very awkward. Also that left hand over in low position is (surprisingly) much more tiring than left hand under though this may be something one can train for.

As you know the idea of a counterweight on Hellenistic pikes is entirely speculative (and I don't buy it for a second).

[Erpingham]

As you know the idea of a counterweight on Hellenistic pikes is entirely speculative (and I don't buy it for a second).

I framed my statement with this in mind   I would note though that many modern writers take counterweighting as a given, which opinion I had also to acknowledge..

[Justin Swanton]

Here are a few pics to clarify what I have in mind. I work on the premise that the sarissa is counterweighted by the sauroter which makes its point of balance 4 cubits or 6 feet from the sauroter tip, i.e. at the place it is gripped by the left hand (following Arrian).

The rear ranks hold the sarissa with the right hand on top, palm away from the body. With this grip it is easy to swivel the shaft up or down at any angle, using the right hand as a fulcrum (in these pics I projected the shield somewhat ahead but it's rim can be easily rested on the hip leaving the left arm completely at rest):








The second to fifth/sixth ranks - the ones whose pikeheads can reach the enemy - would grip the shaft with the polevaulter hold. The left arm rests in the ochanon and the telamon supports the shield and arm. The right arm, held fairly close to the body and not giving any support to the sarissa (which rests entirely on the left hand), is not strained and can hold that pose indefinitely.



The shaft must of necessity be horizontal, but can be thrust forwards very strongly with a throwing motion similar to throwing a javelin. The left hand loosens its trip and the right hand drives the sarissa forward:



PS: I did I get that old? And where did that second chin come from?

[Nick Harbud]

PS: I did I get that old? And where did that second chin come from?

Just so long as it's all bought and paid for.... 

[RichT]

Useful pictures Justin. So as I understand it you have:

Front rank - 'standard low' (left under, right over, low)
Ranks 2-5 (or 6) - 'polevaulter high' (left over, right under, high)
Ranks 6+ (or 7+) - 'double over low' (left over, right over, low)

Why do you have a different grip for ranks 2-5 from 6+? Wouldn't it be easier (in terms of stepping forward as replacements) if they used the same grip? If a front ranker fell, would his second need to change grip or do you assume in the rough and tumble of combat such niceties wouldn't matter? I'm pretty certain your final image (holding the sarissa by the end 30cm or so) would be impossible with a real sarissa, counterweighted or not. You say the telamon suports the shield and/or sarissa arm but given the angle it's at, the amount of support (weight bearing) looks fairly minimal. In order to provide support, would it not need to be so short that it was impossible to lower the left arm? How would this affect eg marching to combat? Both the counterweight and the telamon are speculative, with no hard evidence to support them (as we've discussed previously) so do you feel they are essential to your model?

The standard view of Hellenistic pike grips is:

Ranks 1-16 - 'standard low' (left under, right over, low)

Which has the benefit of simplicity (Occam would be pleased). I understand you feel this standard model is impossible due to the difficulty of the sarissa passing the shields. So isn't the very first step to demonstrate the incompatibility of the standard model with carrying (forward facing) shields? Then once you've shown that the standard model is impossible (or at least unlikely), your alternative three-grip model would become more attractive. As it is, your model is fine, and there's no reason I know of to declare it impossible, but it is also entirely speculative and logically unnecessary, and there doesn't seem any reason to favour it.