Author Topic: Arthur's dykes  (Read 3676 times)

Anton

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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #165 on: January 13, 2020, 02:02:53 PM »
Kent is interesting. Keeps its original name, Christianity survives and native British law is finally eradicated on the 9th of April 1925 when the Administration of Estates Act received royal assent.

All in all I'd suggest that this probably means the account of Vortigern's foedus with Hengist is likely right in its essentials. 

Hengist seems to behave in terms of native name, religion and law as someone who saw themselves as an legitimate authority rather than as a conqueror.
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Holly

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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #166 on: January 13, 2020, 03:08:51 PM »
I believe there is a split of views on whether Hengist (and Horsa) are real or 'legendary' personages that acrue local affiliations to legitimise royal lines.... I still tend to the former but see the point of the latter
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Anton

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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #167 on: January 13, 2020, 03:22:36 PM »
Yes, indeed and the gable ends stuff.  On the other hand there's the Finnsburgh fragment.  I think it's the process that's most interesting.
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Duncan Head

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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #168 on: January 13, 2020, 03:23:39 PM »
I believe there is a split of views on whether Hengist (and Horsa) are real or 'legendary' personages that acrue local affiliations to legitimise royal lines.... I still tend to the former but see the point of the latter
I think some authors accept Hengist but not "his wife (or horse) Horsa", if only because Hengest appears in the Finnsburg Fragment without Horsa.
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Holly

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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #169 on: January 13, 2020, 03:51:47 PM »
and indeed interestingly studied by one esteemed Professor Tolkien..
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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #170 on: January 13, 2020, 05:21:45 PM »
I believe there is a split of views on whether Hengist (and Horsa) are real or 'legendary' personages that acrue local affiliations to legitimise royal lines.... I still tend to the former but see the point of the latter

It is certainly strange that both personages, legendary or real, are named after horses.  Are these real names, nicknames (in the style of the later Scandinavians) or even titles? 
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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #171 on: January 13, 2020, 05:30:10 PM »
I believe there is a split of views on whether Hengist (and Horsa) are real or 'legendary' personages that acrue local affiliations to legitimise royal lines.... I still tend to the former but see the point of the latter

It is certainly strange that both personages, legendary or real, are named after horses.  Are these real names, nicknames (in the style of the later Scandinavians) or even titles?

one only has to look at Arthur.... arth is bear in welsh, ur(sus) is bear in latin etc etc ad finitum  :)
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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #172 on: January 16, 2020, 09:37:38 PM »
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aligern

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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #173 on: January 17, 2020, 08:34:54 AM »
Is there a tendency for Late Antique Authors in Britain, both British and German to try and weave in every source, perhaps without a hard and fast distinction . So a ‘bardic’ tale or legend or royal myth of The Kentish ‘dynasty’ having a horse totem and maybe once horse cult gets fitted in as the arriving  leader’s brother. It is likely that tge early German leaders had part time priestly roles in an elite cult so it might be that they had two names for their secular and religious roles or could someone else in the royal clan perform the priestly function?
I don’t doubt tgat they had the priests who contended with the Christians, just to what extent these formed a separate profession as opposed to being members of the ruling class or the ruler, with dual functions?
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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #174 on: January 17, 2020, 10:00:12 AM »
https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/axe-the-anglo-saxons.htm

of related interest.....

An interesting contrast.  I'm not sure it fully explains how these new polities come into existence, or, if all was harmonius, why Gildas' account clearly talks of conflict and the early medieval (aka Anglo-Saxon) tradition also talked of conflict.  Presumably, the dyke building craze in this theory were just territorial markers with no military function?

I did like the idea of the reason we all speak English is because we adopted a version of the working language of our new economic sphere centred on the North Sea in the East, as the economic dominance of Rome faded. 
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Andreas Johansson

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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #175 on: January 17, 2020, 10:28:41 AM »
An interesting contrast.  I'm not sure it fully explains how these new polities come into existence, or, if all was harmonius, why Gildas' account clearly talks of conflict and the early medieval (aka Anglo-Saxon) tradition also talked of conflict.

A harmonious interlude that just happens to fall into the ill-attested period between the invasions and civil wars of the fourth century and the wars of the seventh strikes me as a wee bit suspicious.
Quote
I did like the idea of the reason we all speak English is because we adopted a version of the working language of our new economic sphere centred on the North Sea in the East, as the economic dominance of Rome faded.
The linguistic content of the article is frankly mostly bonkers. Old English was a firmly Germanic language, with surprisingly little British influence (something that has been taken as evidence that Latin had largely replaced British in much of England by AD 400 or so - Latin influence is more evident).
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Anton

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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #176 on: January 18, 2020, 09:13:59 PM »
Yes, all that. 

I'd say the Latin influence on English is because Latin was the elite language of Christianity. In Northumbria English, Latin and Irish were the elite languages the last two because of the Church.  Iona and all.
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aligern

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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #177 on: January 20, 2020, 06:50:27 PM »
To agree with Anton, an advantage that the church had was that much of what it was  engaged n was new, so there was no existing word to be replaced. Rather like Spanish milutary terms in the sixteenth century, Latin had a fiekdvall to itself.
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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #178 on: January 20, 2020, 09:05:42 PM »
From that article "He assumes that many people could speak two or three languages, and notes that almost everyone could speak vernacular Latin"

I guess that the relevant part of Bede is
" There are in the island at present, following the number of the books in which the Divine Law was written, five languages of different nations employed in the study and confession of this knowledge [of Christianity], which is of highest truth and true sublimity: these languages are English, British, Scottish [Gaelic], Pictish, and Latin, the last having become common to all peoples by the study of the Scriptures. "
The article seems to miss the 'languages... employed in the study [of Christianity]' so Latin is common to those employed such activity, rather than by the man in the strata/straet/street.
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Jim Webster

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Re: Arthur's dykes
« Reply #179 on: January 20, 2020, 09:18:54 PM »
From that article "He assumes that many people could speak two or three languages, and notes that almost everyone could speak vernacular Latin"

I guess that the relevant part of Bede is
" There are in the island at present, following the number of the books in which the Divine Law was written, five languages of different nations employed in the study and confession of this knowledge [of Christianity], which is of highest truth and true sublimity: these languages are English, British, Scottish [Gaelic], Pictish, and Latin, the last having become common to all peoples by the study of the Scriptures. "
The article seems to miss the 'languages... employed in the study [of Christianity]' so Latin is common to those employed such activity, rather than by the man in the strata/straet/street.

Yes, I suspect Latin was more commonly used for theological discussion than it was for the purchase of sheep
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