News:

Welcome to the SoA Forum.  You are welcome to browse through and contribute to the Forums listed below.

Main Menu

Nanzhao auxiliaries

Started by Duncan Head, May 04, 2020, 11:05:07 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Duncan Head

Was it someone on this list (Nik?) or dbmmlist who was asking about figures for the Nanzhao tribal advance-guard light horse?

I ask because I've just come across the original reference to them in Man Shu:

QuoteWang-chü-tzŭ Man. They live to the west of-the Lan-ts'ang-chiang. They were punished and pacified by Sheng-lo-p'i. They are warlike, nimble, and good at using the lance and the ch'an on horseback. When they ride a horse, they do not use a saddle. They go barefoot. They wear a short jerkin barely protecting the breast and stomach - that is all. Their legs and knees are all bare. On their caps and helmets they stick yak-hair. They gallop and charge as if they were flying. Their womenfolk also can do the like. When Nan-chao and the great generals of the various cities and garrison-towns send out troops, the Wang-chü-tzŭ will act as the vanguard.

I could try to transliterate from the 1961 original's Wade-Giles into pinyin, but it's a bit like hard work.
Duncan Head

nikgaukroger

Cheers  8)

What would the "ch'an" be?
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

Duncan Head

The translator doesn't seem to know, and nor do I. A footnote shows the character attached.

The book, by the way, is available as pdf from https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/57513 Back when I worked on Nanzhao for TNE and for Slingshot, I only had access to bits of it (I forget why; a partial photocopy from someone?), so I didn't have the scattered descriptions of tribal troops like this.
Duncan Head

nikgaukroger

Thanks, will add that document to the reading list  8)
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

Swampster

The military bits are a pretty quick read.

I had a look to see what other Chinese histories are available in translation online, but would appreciate some pointers. I had a look at the History of Jin http://chinesenotes.com/jinshi/jinshi044.html and tried using Google translate which was, umm, interesting. (Not that I expected much).

Duncan Head

Thumbing through a dictionary, it looks as if the chan in question may be the character translated as "a shovel, a scoop". Getting a weapon out of that is .... not obvious.
Duncan Head

Andreas Johansson

Quote from: Duncan Head on May 05, 2020, 12:03:14 PM
Thumbing through a dictionary, it looks as if the chan in question may be the character translated as "a shovel, a scoop". Getting a weapon out of that is .... not obvious.
Any tool with a long shaft has potential as an improvised pole-arm, and sharpened spades were used as weapons in both world wars, so a word for "shovel" coming to mean some sort of weapon - probably axe-like - doesn't seem strange to me.

Cavalry with barge-poles strikes me as unlikelier. :P
Lead Mountain 2024
Acquired: 44 infantry, 16 cavalry, 0 chariots, 5 other
Finished: 24 infantry, 0 cavalry, 0 chariots, 1 other

Duncan Head

There are various later Chinese "spade" polearms - see http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2019/03/telling-apart-chinese-polearms-quick.html - but they are not, as far as I know, attested as early as the Tang, nor are they obvious light cavalry weapons.
Duncan Head

Jim Webster

Quote from: Duncan Head on May 05, 2020, 01:50:53 PM
There are various later Chinese "spade" polearms - see http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2019/03/telling-apart-chinese-polearms-quick.html - but they are not, as far as I know, attested as early as the Tang, nor are they obvious light cavalry weapons.

I'm sure I have seen pictures of Korean cavalry using rice flails on horseback (obviously Japanese invasion era) so the things people use on horseback in that area seem to be varied  :)

nikgaukroger

Quote from: Duncan Head on May 05, 2020, 12:03:14 PM
Thumbing through a dictionary, it looks as if the chan in question may be the character translated as "a shovel, a scoop". Getting a weapon out of that is .... not obvious.

Something vaguely axe like perhaps?
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

Duncan Head

And what should I find but a battle-axe in a Yunnan museum with a blade somewhat reminiscent of the Ming-era "spade" weapons.

It is much too early to be good evidence, though, and continuity may be pushing it.
Duncan Head

Dangun

For anyone needing an electronic copy of that character its...

As Duncan said, its shovel.


Duncan Head

Duncan Head

Dangun

Does anyone know if there has been an English translation of the Nanzhao Dehua Bei stele?

Duncan Head

Duncan Head