Unearthing Richard III

[Patrick Waterson]

Richard III's closest relatives believe they have tracked down their illustrious forebear's last resting-place: under a council car-park.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/archaeologists-richard-iii-dig-032624776.html

"The son of a descendant of Richard III's eldest sister was on site as what is believed to be the first ever search for the lost grave of an anointed King of England began in a city centre car park.

Canadian-born Michael Ibsen watched as archaeological experts from the University of Leicester used ground penetrating radar equipment to find the best spots to begin their search at the car park off Greyfriars in Leicester.

His mother Joy Ibsen, who died four years ago aged 82, was a direct descendant of the King's eldest sister Anne of York

Born in the UK, the journalist, who was the 16th generation niece of Richard III, emigrated to Canada in her 20s. Mr Ibsen, a furniture maker who is living in London, said his mother would have been thrilled by the project.

The 55-year-old, who was born in Canada, said: "The family were entertained when she got the call several years ago from a historian claiming she was a descendant. We thought it was more of a story than anything else but as time went by it became more serious and a DNA connection to Richard's eldest sister Anne of York was found."

Richard III was brought to Leicester where he was buried in the church of the Franciscan Friary, known as Greyfriars, after he fell in the Battle of Bosworth in 1485. But the exact whereabouts of the church have become lost over time.

While hopes are high at finding the site, which is currently being used as a car park for council offices, the experts are less confident about finding the monarch's remains during the two-week search.

Rumours say the monarch's bones could have been thrown into the River Soar after the dissolution of the monasteries.

Richard Buckley, co-director of the Archaeology Service at the university, said: "It is quite a long shot but it's a very exciting project. We don't know the whereabouts of any of the friary buildings at the moment. We don't know precisely where the body would have been buried but we suspect it would be in the choir or near the alter."

If bones are found they will be assessed for trauma to the skeleton, as the monarch was killed in battle, then be subject to DNA analysis. King Richard III, the last Plantagenet, ruled England from 1483 until he was defeated at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485."

If the skeleton is found, it should also resolve the question of whether the king really was a 'crook-back' once and for all.

Patrick

[Paul Innes]

I'm no expert, but I was chatting to a medieval military historian yesterday and he says there's no chance: the bones were chucked in the river during the dissolution!

Paul

[Mark]

Isn't "the son of a descendant" still just a descendant?

[Jim Webster]

I'm no expert, but I was chatting to a medieval military historian yesterday and he says there's no chance: the bones were chucked in the river during the dissolution!

Paul

that was discussed in at least one article, apparently some people think the story was started by a 17th century antiquarian who was miffed because he couldn't find the bones (but was looking in the wrong place)
But of course he might have been right

Jim

[Mark]

Isn't "the son of a descendant" still just a descendant?

Thinking about it (too much time on my hands) the DNA connection is probably established through mitochondrial DNA, which is only traced I think through the female line ... still a daft construction though.

[Andreas Johansson]

Mitochondrial DNA is indeed inherited solely in the female line. (In humans, other animals, and sundry other eukaryotes. Some eukaryotes don't deign to have separate sexes, of course, and other do have paternal inheritance of mitochondria. And some don't have mitochondria at all.)

[Jim Webster]

Isn't "the son of a descendant" still just a descendant?

technically perhaps not, you can be an adopted child so you would be someone's son but not their descendant.

Jim

[Patrick Waterson]

And if anyone is wondering what a eukaryote is, it is any creature with complex cell structures enclosed within membranes - which distinguishes eukaryotes from prokaryotes like bacteria, the key and defining complex bit being a nucleus with genetic material.

And yes, the son of a descendant is still a descendant, otherwise we would not have grandfathers ... but you know journalists!

Patrick

[Duncan Head]

And they reckon they've found some human bones - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-19561018.

[Jim Webster]

Very interesting. Certainly you can see why they are starting to get excited!

Jim

[Mark]

And now ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9538546/Archaeologists-believe-they-have-found-skeleton-of-King-Richard-III.html

[Mark]

And the announcement came out earlier today: it is indeed Richard III

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9846693/Richard-III-skeleton-is-the-king.html

[WillieB]

Quite exciting news! It was just on Belgian television. The comments were of the typical 'informed journalist' type but they also showed some re- enactors and a spokesperson for a Richard III Society who made it a very interesting item.
Did I hear correctly that there was an arrowhead lodged in his spine?

[Tim]

I am sure it is RIII and the planned tourist attractions are not pre-ordained, just as I am sure of football match resul...

[Patrick Waterson]

Did I hear correctly that there was an arrowhead lodged in his spine?

Yes.

Reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/04/us-britain-richard-idUSBRE9130BW20130204 report "A metal fragment was found in the vertebrae."

Yahoo News http://uk.news.yahoo.com/richard-iiis-remains-found-council-car-park-104153573.html states: "The skeleton, with severe trauma to the skull and an arrow in the back, was unearthed on the first day of a three-week dig at the site of what is believed to have been the choir of Greyfriars Church."

The Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-skeleton-last-plantagenet-king-live?oo=0  states: "He appears to have a battle wound in the skull and a barber metal arrowhead was found between vertebrae in his upper back."  ('Barber' here should be 'barbed'.  The Guardian is traditionally noted for typographical errors.)