Tewkesbury - any good sources

[Dave Knight]

My research has moved on to Tewkesbury which looks as if it is going to be fun to recreate in any sort of historical way

Any recent research?

Any thought on the make up of the spears that emerge from the woods to ambush the Lancastrians? Hobilars perhaps?

[Mick Hession]

They are called currours in DBMM army lists though IIRC they were known by a few different terms at the time (not hobilars though, as that term seems to have been obsolete by then, at least in England).

I don't know about recent research but if you have the Slinshot DVD there was a very good article on the battle a long time ago (possibly 1980s. The fact I can remember it after so many years is a recommendation)

Cheers
Mick

[Erpingham]

Any thought on the make up of the spears that emerge from the woods to ambush the Lancastrians? Hobilars perhaps?

Spears usually meant men-at-arms.  Whether WOTR hobilars counted as second-rate men-at-arms and could be counted as spears I don't know.  They may have been counted in the lighter cavalry types, in which case, they would probably be called "staves".

[Erpingham]

They are called currours in DBMM army lists though IIRC they were known by a few different terms at the time (not hobilars though, as that term seems to have been obsolete by then, at least in England).

Currours, scurriers, prickers (which means galloper) all refer to their scouting, screening and general running about activities.  Whether they had an independent battlefield role I think is a bit moot.  I suspect we should see them as second class men-at-arms in that context, either backing up the men-at-arms on foot or as the back ranks in a mounted role.  But that's just an opinion.  I agree hobilar is an obsolete term.  It does still occur in the formulas for raising commissions of array in the counties until the 1480s, though. 

[Dave Knight]

From what I have read Edward sent 200 'spears or spearmen' to scout a wood in case of a Lancastrian ambush.  No such ambush had been set but they emerged at a crucial point and charged the rear of the enemy.

Scouting sounds like a mounted task, charging into combat, even to the rear, less so but possible

[Erpingham]

Here's the relevant bit of the Historie of the Arrivall of Edward IV

"Here it is to be remembred, how that, whan the Kynge was comyn afore theyr fielde, or he set upon them, he consydered that, upon the right hand of theyr field, there was a parke, and therein moche wood, and he, thinkynge to purvey a remedye in caace his sayd enemyes had layed any bushement in that wood, of horsemen, he chose, out of his fellashyppe, ij^c speres, and set them in a plomp, togethars, nere a qwartar of a myle from the fielde, gyvenge them charge to have good eye upon that cornar of the woode, if caas that eny nede were, and to put them in devowre, and, yf they saw none suche, as they thowght most behovfull for tyme and space, to employ themselfe in the best wyse as they cowlde ; which provisyon cam as well to poynt at this tyme of the battayle as cowthe well have been devysed, for the sayd spers of the Kyngs party, seinge no lyklynes of eny busshement in the sayd woode-corner, seinge also goode oportunitie t'employ them selfe well, cam and brake on, all at ones, upon the Duke of Somerset, and his vawarde, asyde-hand, unadvysed, whereof they, seinge the Kynge gave them ynoughe to doo afore them, were gretly dismaied and abasshed, and so toke them to flyght into the parke, andinto the medowe that was nere, and into lanes, and dykes, where they best hopyd to escape the dangar"

It seems we are dealing with a mounted flank guard who were given latitude to make themselves useful if they didn't detect any enemy ambushes.  I think I would read their sudden onset meaning they likely stayed on their horses.

[Duncan Head]

Arquebusier vol. XXXVII/I arrived today, and the first article is about Tewkesbury. 8.5 pages, by Adrian Fray.

The first part of the article deals with the suggestion that Wenlock was not killed at Tewkesbury, but is in fact the John Wenlock whose will is known dated 1476 (a theory mentioned in the Wikipedia article on Wenlock). The second, briefer section summarises suggestions on the location and course of the battle made in Fray's book.

[Dave Knight]

Joined the Pike and Shot Society so should be getting the article on Tewkesbury son

Out of interest, how do we know that Hobelar was an obsolete term by this time?

[Erpingham]

Out of interest, how do we know that Hobelar was an obsolete term by this time?

Infrequency of use in the 15th century, I think.  The term is still used in commission of array formulas but doesn't seem to be anywhere else.  It is possible the role continued but the name changed.  It is possible to see northern or border horse as equivalent, for example. 

[Dave Knight]

Out of interest, how do we know that Hobelar was an obsolete term by this time?

Infrequency of use in the 15th century, I think.  The term is still used in commission of array formulas but doesn't seem to be anywhere else.  It is possible the role continued but the name changed.  It is possible to see northern or border horse as equivalent, for example.

Just wondering where we see the newer terms, Currors etc being quoted?

[Erpingham]

Out of interest, how do we know that Hobelar was an obsolete term by this time?

Infrequency of use in the 15th century, I think.  The term is still used in commission of array formulas but doesn't seem to be anywhere else.  It is possible the role continued but the name changed.  It is possible to see northern or border horse as equivalent, for example.

Just wondering where we see the newer terms, Currors etc being quoted?

The OED is useful for this, to see when the words come into use.  Currour is a borrowing from French and had been in use for centuries before the WOTR.   Scurrier/scourer and pricker seem to appear in the 14th century.  The OED records them in use in poetry, literature and history. Scourers (or scorars) is used in the Arrival of Edward IV, along with fore-riders

[Dave Knight]

A lot of people use Perrs figures and they call them scurrers so that is what we went with

[Erpingham]

A lot of people use Perrs figures and they call them scurrers so that is what we went with

That seems reasonable   I don't think the different names necessarily reflected any tactical nuances.  As I said earlier, they don't describe a type of soldier, more a role.  This might be a good time to wheel out my favourite Northern cavalry description, describing a band of men causing trouble in Ripon in 1441

like men of were, with brest plate, vambracs and rerebrace, greves and quischers, gorgett and salett, long spears and lancegayes; and the simplest arrayed of all the said persons had either a gestiment, or a hawburgon, or a thick jack, upon him, and either a pricknighate or a sallett upon their heads

I can imagine that our spears in their "plompe" at Tewksbury might have looked similar - the better men fully armed and the lesser sort with lighter kit (as modelled by Perry scurrers).

[Dave Knight]

I don't think that the Wars of the Roses was a period of very much by way of tactical nuance 😁