Is this Sasanian

[aligern]

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoKkqRlRQGGYAzPqJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Droman%2Bcavalry%2Btomb%26_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Droman%2Bcavalry%2Btomb%26fr%3Daaplw%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D41&w=150&h=167&imgurl=img65.imageshack.us%2Fimg65%2F9673%2Fsassanianbowl0jk.th.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.totalwar.org%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3F62794-Why-does-all-cavalry-get-the-quot-Effective-against-armour-quot-trait&size=6.4+KB&name=Re%3A+Why+does+all+cavalry+get+the+%26quot%3BEffective+against+armour%26quot%3B+trait%3F&p=roman+cavalry+tomb&oid=790d416886ca2dabd882995edd373380&fr2=&fr=aaplw&tt=Re%253A%2BWhy%2Bdoes%2Ball%2Bcavalry%2Bget%2Bthe%2B%2526quot%253BEffective%2Bagainst%2Barmour%2526quot%253B%2Btrait%253F&b=31&ni=96&no=41&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=13ounu94v&sigb=142jncjkb&sigi=11mvg4hft&.crumb=8ofeobKs4xQ

Found this on a search and wondered if it is  some copy/ RTW nonsense or a genuine item
Roy

[aligern]

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/9673/sassanianbowl0jk.th.jpg

Might work better!!
Roy

[tadamson]

Yes it is a bowl that is attributed as Persian from the Sasanian period.

Why do you ask?

If it's "gosh these are lancers but they are not cataphracts" they you need to know that there are lots of Parthian and Sasanian images of such 'light' lancers.  Most of the horse archers, armoured or otherwise, would have had a lance as well.

Tom..

[aligern]

Oooh Tom I agree with you that some at least of the Parthian horse archers have lancers. Never got me far with Phil or Duncan though!

However, I confess to never having seen this bowl before (which I think is Sasanain.  Any date?  Any books that contain it?/
Roy

[tadamson]

It's in Tabriz
http://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/azerbaijan-museum-tabriz/
high res image
http://www.livius.org/a/1/iran/sasanian_plate_warriors2_mus_tabriz.jpg

Like most such bowls it probably shows an image from a famous story, or a myth.  The combatants here are a king (on the left, I forget which) and a noble so probably not LH(F) :-).

Nigel is pretty convinced that the stripes on the arms and legs of the chap on the right are fabric, others think that they are "cataphract" armour.  I think that Nigel is right and that this is an incident whilst hunting (you wear body armour when hunting lions and boar).

Regards,

Tom..

[aligern]

Brilliant Tom, any more hidden gems?

The figure getting speared is strongly reminiscent of the Parthian nobles that are shown being defeated by the Sasanians.
Roy

[Jim Webster]

Actually both participants look very like the rock reliefs

Jim

[Duncan Head]

Actually both participants look very like the rock reliefs

Which is partly why I suspect it might be a fake. Specifically, one inspired by the figures on the battle-scene at Firuzabad - the defeated figure on this plate is very like the Parthians in the rock-relief.

I am suspicious also because I haven't previously seen a Sasanian combat scene like this that's not strictly profile - like Firuzabad and all the other rock-reliefs. The three-quarter view of the defated horseman, the odd arrangement of the cuirass (or whatever) around his lower torso, the suspicion that the victor's sleeves are a misunderstanding of laminated armpieces tweaked to match the zig-zags on his skirts: I don't trust this piece.

[Jim Webster]

To me it had Firuzabad written all over it. As for fake, stylistically it doesn't look much like anything else I've seen, as you say, the defeated horseman is too much a three-quarter view for me to be comfortable with it

Jim

[aligern]

And yet the horses are rendered so perfectly. If fake it be then why not just replicate a side view?
R

[Jim Webster]

it is a difficult one.
The format,the bottom of a bowl doesn't really lend itself to a Firuzabad style work, you have to bring things in and one way of doing this and filling everything is to make them more three-quarter.
But that might provoke an original artist as well as a forger

Jim

[Mark]

Some other pictures from the museum in question: http://www.pbase.com/k_amj/azerbaijanmuseum

[tadamson]

You might find some of Soudavar's work interesting, he has a political message but is a good scholar.

See:
http://www.soudavar.com/index_files/Page368.htm

particularly:
http://www.soudavar.com/Canepa%20review.pdf
http://www.soudavar.com/Iranica%20Antiqua%202009%20-%20Soudavar.pdf

enjoy,

Tom..

[Duncan Head]

And yet the horses are rendered so perfectly. If fake it be then why not just replicate a side view?

Well, I think that one technique forgers often use is to amalgamate details from different works. So if this is in fact a forgery, I'd assume the forger copied a falling horse and rider from somewhere without realising that they didn't really quite fit the Sasanian style.

There's also the defeated man's face - can anyone suggest a Sasanian face that matches that?

I'd quite like to be wrong, this is an attractive piece that would be very useful for Sasanian military studies, of anyone can come up with stylistic parallels or firm provenance information. I'm just not quite sure I believe it, yet.

[tadamson]

I was watching 'Treasures of Rome' (or some similar title BBC prog on the history of Roman art) last night and was immediately struck by the similarities in style between this and Late Roman gold and silver plates.

Tom..