Common misconceptions

[Justin Swanton]

Hellenistic tacticians = drill and organisation of the Hellenistic 'Macedonian' phalanx.

Gaugamela - Macedonian phalanx, OK.
Cannae - Libyans - Roman drill or who knows?
Ilipa - Romans
Zama - Romans
Cynoscephalae - Romans

It may be that the tacticians have general applicability to all infantry, not just the Hellenistic phalanx, but this is something that needs to be argued for or demonstrated, not just assumed.

My point is that every example I can find of infantry changing orientation on the battlefield or doing anything other than move straight forwards involves using columns. The manuals lay out the details of how it was done (fact), but that does not mean only the late Seleucid army did it (also fact). If one army implements a good idea it isn't long before other armies try it out (presuming they are capable of it at all). Germans wheel out panzer divisions; before long Russians, British and Americans are emulating them. The Romans in particular are famous for this (copying other armies, not fielding panzer divisions).

That lines (esp. of Hellenistic infantry) could - and often did - manoeuvre to their flanks by forming column is not in doubt. See my 'Epikampios' article in Slingshot a while back, or this thread http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=4127.0 or if really desperate, my book (link in signature, only £30, sometimes less on Amazon ).

£30 - ouch! But then the South African rand is really pathetic against First World currencies.

To go from there to an assertion that no infantry in antiquity could (even in principle) perform wheels is, to say the least, a bit of a stretch.

Never said that. What I need is just one example - just one teeny, weeny, clearly documented example - of an infantry line in Antiquity wheeling as a line, either in a single block or by subunit.

Some new evidence or arguments, rather than just a repetition of the ones we've already had, might be interesting.

Questions that aren't properly answered have a bad habit of not going away. 

[RichT]

What I need is just one example - just one teeny, weeny, clearly documented example - of an infantry line in Antiquity wheeling as a line, either in a single block or by subunit.

And a pony?

The burden of proof is firmly on you to demonstrate that every single manoeuvre of an infantry line in Antiquity was performed in column and that lines never, ever wheeled. It's your theory, you need to convince us, not vice versa.

I'd also like one teeny, weeny, clearly documented example of how Greek hoplites fought each other. I guess we are both doomed to perpetual disappointment.

[Justin Swanton]

1. Formulate a theory.
2. Test the theory against all known source evidence to see if the evidence chimes with the theory.
3. Wait and see if any cogent arguments arise that refute the theory.
4. Convince influential academics and media figures that this is a new shiny bandwagon that will effectively replace the tired old bandwagons, variety being the spice of life.
5. Sit back, relax and watch as your theory is propagated as fact, your books sell like hot cakes, and the BBC signs you up for a documentary.

And a bit more seriously...

I've looked at every battle I know of in which infantry change orientation or move in any direction other than straight ahead, and in every single case they do it by column - or, at the very least, the best explanation is that they do it by column. I can't cite any primary source that says "Infantry only wheeled into or as a column and never as a line." Equally there is no primary source quote that "Infantry lines wheeled as lines." Plenty of history is by deduction and inference, producing conclusions that are at least plausible and can even be morally certain. I've supplied evidence. Can the other position supply evidence as well?

[Mark G]

Justin,

As per previous threads, you will improve your conceptions if you do look into more modern drill examples.

These two are Napoleonic- but before you get your hopes up there are NO 1.5 km wheels in this period because the whole damn point of Napoleonic drill was to not do that.  You may well find some examples somewhere between the WSS and the 7YW though, but again, it's not really the point.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Imperial-Bayonets-Napoleonic-Contemporary-Regulations/dp/1911512234/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=imperial+bayonets&qid=1619008243&sprefix=imperial+bay&sr=8-1

And

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Battle-Tactics-Napoleon-His-Enemies/dp/0094772401/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=brent+nosworthy&qid=1619008292&sprefix=brent+nosw&sr=8-1

They should cover it for you.  If you get really into the topic though, I'd be happy to recommend a few more volumes to keep you off this topic here longer

[Justin Swanton]

Now all I have to do is buy them... 

[Erpingham]

Now all I have to do is buy them... 

Justin, if you can't find plenty of free examples of 18th and 19th century drill online (with diagrams) your google-foo needs work.

[Mark G]

You have to read them, dude.

You can't learn by osmosis, so sticking the books in your pillow case won't work

[Justin Swanton]

You have to read them, dude.

You can't learn by osmosis, so sticking the books in your pillow case won't work

Damn! There goes another self-improvement plan...

[Mark G]

To be strictly correct, I believe it does work when studying a bachelors in the commerce faculty ... nothing else would explain how folk with such a low reading age seem to graduate

[Imperial Dave]

 

[Jim Webster]

To be strictly correct, I believe it does work when studying a bachelors in the commerce faculty ... nothing else would explain how folk with such a low reading age seem to graduate

Well that brightened the day nicely 

[Andreas Johansson]

I once took a business administration course together with some MBA students. Apparently, numeracy is completely optional for MBA's.

[DougM]

Numeracy is optional, buzz words are not, sadly.

[Imperial Dave]

alas buzz words pervade throughout a lot of business circles

[DougM]

Shame really, I worked with some MBAs in the late 90s and early 2000s. They were really bright. Totally devalued now unless they are from Harvard or similar.