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Falsifying Hannibal's numbers

Started by philjones62, February 05, 2023, 09:59:27 PM

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philjones62

I note that Academia are inviting comments on Steven James' paper on the above.  I am not sure how broadly this is accessible.

Andreas Johansson

James' paper appears to be freely available to anyone with an Academia account:

https://www.academia.edu/96335573/How_Polybius_Falsified_Hannibals_Army_Numbers_of_218_BC

(If you don't have an account, creating a basic one sufficient to read this is free.)
Lead Mountain 2024
Acquired: 243 infantry, 55 cavalry, 2 chariots, 95 other
Finished: 100 infantry, 16 cavalry, 3 chariots, 56 other

Ian61

Am I missing something here, the text keeps mentioning the size of Hannibal's army and then crunching numbers for Roman / Allied forces. I consider myself a fairly numerate person but this has left me baffled. ???
Ian Piper
Norton Fitzwarren, Somerset

Erpingham

Well, it has the typical Steven James love of numbers  :)  I think a fundamental issue is he doesn't explain why a Roman author would assume Hannibal's army mirrored Roman army structures or why they would think it reflected a set number of legions.  Perhaps this is explained in another extract from this multi-volume work?

DBS

Quite.  All I could conclude is an assumption that Polybius and his Roman mates could only work in legion equivalents.  And anyone credible would not call allied forces "legions"...
David Stevens

Duncan Head

Quote from: DBS on February 06, 2023, 03:03:43 PMAnd anyone credible would not call allied forces "legions"...
Livy does  ;)

OK, admittedly not until Magnesia, thirty or so years later...
Duncan Head

Cantabrigian

I haven't read the paper, but the idea that army strengths might have been inaccurate or deliberately inflated doesn't sound like breaking news.

What am I missing?

Duncan Head

Quote from: Cantabrigian on February 07, 2023, 11:59:15 AMWhat am I missing?

The idea that all Roman historians (in this case, Polybios's Roman source Cincius Alimentus) described enemy forces in numbers that exactly matched a number of Roman and/or allied Italian legions.
Duncan Head

DBS

Quote from: Duncan Head on February 06, 2023, 08:36:14 PM
Quote from: DBS on February 06, 2023, 03:03:43 PMAnd anyone credible would not call allied forces "legions"...
Livy does  ;)

OK, admittedly not until Magnesia, thirty or so years later...
And then writing it all up nearly two centuries later...
David Stevens