Stonehenge altar stone came from Scotland, not Wales

[Duncan Head]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/14/stonehenge-megalith-came-from-scotland-not-wales-jaw-dropping-study-finds

[Imperial Dave]

Dabnabbit...

[Jim Webster]

I heard about it on the car radio, it is interesting. My thought for what it's worth is that it shows we underestimate the ship building prowess of our predecessors in about 2600BC

The Egyptians had 'solar ships', the Khufu ship is from about 2500BC.
To get the stone from the far North of Scotland, even if it's on the mainland, a ship is going to be a far easier method. Also if you have boats that can transport a six ton stone, then you're in a world where it's not unreasonable for people in the Atlantic coastal region to be in contact with each other

[Imperial Dave]

Waterways and oceans were the ancients superhighways

[DBS]

The only oddity for me regarding the hypothesis is that the presumed source is so very far north and slightly biased to the east coast. Neolithic maritime links up the west coast, from Lisbon to the Western Isles, well established. So either came west about from extreme reach of that route, or braved the North Sea. Not that there is anything easy about The Minch, for example, at times...

[Erpingham]

Though, given Orkney seems to be a major cultural centre in the Neolithic, seafaring must have been quite established in the area.  There may have been established routes - it would be seriously heroic to forge new routes while encumbered with a 6 tonne rock.

Overall, it is fascinating just to consider what this tells us about the interconnectedness of Neolithic societies over long distances.

[Imperial Dave]

Indeed it does.

Orkney turns up time and again in the early period as a major waterway stop off/thoroughfare

[Duncan Head]

To get the stone from the far North of Scotland, even if it's on the mainland, a ship is going to be a far easier method. Also if you have boats that can transport a six ton stone, then you're in a world where it's not unreasonable for people in the Atlantic coastal region to be in contact with each other

Though the chap quoted in the article is of the opinion that transport by land is more likely:

But the archaeologist and writer Mike Pitts, who was not involved in the research but whose work on Neolithic monuments includes the book How to Build Stonehenge, said he believed it was more likely the stone was dragged overland than floated by sea.

He said: "If you put a stone on a boat out to sea, not only do you risk losing the stone – but also nobody can see it." Instead, a land journey, perhaps taking many years, would engage people en route, with the stone "becoming increasingly precious ... as it travels south", he added. Impossible as it may seem today, an overland journey "was easily within the reach of Neolithic technology".

[Erpingham]

While Mike Pitts is an expert on Stonehenge and associated landscape, he is perhaps a bit unorthodox in some of his ideas.  To go by land, you'd need to traverse many slopes, cross many rivers and pass through thick forest. Water transport would be more efficient and less labour intensive.  He can still have his celebratory gatherings and even a slow progress down the coast - the transport vessel is probably coast hopping, coming ashore regularly.  Perhaps stopping at known way-places for rest, recreation and ceremonial.

[Duncan Head]

Follow-up article:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/17/stonehenges-altar-stone-carried-north-east-scotland-but-how

[Chuck the Grey]

While Mike Pitts is an expert on Stonehenge and associated landscape, he is perhaps a bit unorthodox in some of his ideas.  To go by land, you'd need to traverse many slopes, cross many rivers and pass through thick forest. Water transport would be more efficient and less labour intensive.  He can still have his celebratory gatherings and even a slow progress down the coast - the transport vessel is probably coast hopping, coming ashore regularly.  Perhaps stopping at known way-places for rest, recreation and ceremonial.

That was my thought on the transport method. At least no one has suggested space aliens with tractor beams.

[Jim Webster]

While Mike Pitts is an expert on Stonehenge and associated landscape, he is perhaps a bit unorthodox in some of his ideas.  To go by land, you'd need to traverse many slopes, cross many rivers and pass through thick forest. Water transport would be more efficient and less labour intensive.  He can still have his celebratory gatherings and even a slow progress down the coast - the transport vessel is probably coast hopping, coming ashore regularly.  Perhaps stopping at known way-places for rest, recreation and ceremonial.

That was my thought on the transport method. At least no one has suggested space aliens with tractor beams.

It strikes me that overland could be even more complicated than by sea.
Just knowing the stone is there indicates an awful lot of communication

Firstly you've got to want Old Red Sandstone. But even if the stone type is important you can get it nearer  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Red_Sandstone

So you've got to have travellers who cover pretty much the entire British mainland to know about it.

Then by sea you have to have a boat. I wasn't impressed with one article about it which mentioned they had tried rafts to see if they could ship the stuff now, and the rafts had all sunk. I'm afraid for me that merely proves that they didn't use rafts. Unfortunately without some sort of graffiti, or a very lucky archaeological discover we are unlikely to know what sort of boats they might or might not have.

By land you need vastly more organisation. With a boat you need somewhere to set off from, a boat, and a destination willing to trade. It'll be coasting so you'll need safe places to stop but if you do have trade by land or sea, these should be easy enough

To drag the damned thing by land you could have a team that went up and pulled it back. (50 strong was mentioned somewhere) But all those communities they pull through are going to have to be happy to feed and support these team whilst they're in their territory (whether because of religion, or just 'gifts')

Or you have communities doing a relay, dragging it through their territory and passing it on to another community. 'Politically' more difficult but logistically easier?

Then you need 'tracks' which will support dragging this thing along them. (I suggest this is a summer task) but being 1m wide (if 5m long) it isn't a ridiculous width

[DBS]

Then by sea you have to have a boat. I wasn't impressed with one article about it which mentioned they had tried rafts to see if they could ship the stuff now, and the rafts had all sunk. I'm afraid for me that merely proves that they didn't use rafts. Unfortunately without some sort of graffiti, or a very lucky archaeological discover we are unlikely to know what sort of boats they might or might not have.

Also - shocking suggestion - modern day experts are not as good at raft and/or boat building as Neolithic man.

Without disputing the geological reasoning for saying the Altar Stone must have come from Scotland, I still have my doubts.  As Jim says, it means that you have to have people either in Scotland who can look at a rock and say, "That would look lovely on Salisbury Plain, will go nicely with all that Welsh stuff," or you have people living on Salisbury Plain saying, "Well, there is that nice sandstone up in Scotland, would go very nicely with all that Welsh stuff."  You have to have knowledge of both the Stonehenge project and the geology of places a very long way away.  To my mind, the knowledge is as much a challenge as the journey.

Also, how do you get it?  Do some Neolithic Scots hack it out, build a raft or boat or spend the next ten years hauling it over the hills and dales to present it to the Stonehenge mob (who hopefully do not say "that was never in the project proposal...").  Do the Salisbury mob trek up to Scotland, hack it out (with local planning permission?) and then bring it south, trusting that every single community en route will feed and water them?

Given all that, I would not be so absolute in certainty that there was not a lump sitting around courtesy of a glacier, nor so certain that we are so knowledgeable about ancient glaciers that we know which way they flowed.

[Erpingham]

I don't have an issue with there being links from modern Scotland to modern Wiltshire.  We have known for a long time that there was long distance trade/exchange.  Given that the Orkney sub-species of vole arrived in the Neolithic from continental Europe, long range people movement seems the most likely way it got there.  All manner of cultural networks may have existed, for all we know.  They would certainly facilitate stop-offs for long distance exchanges and, maybe, rock shipping.

As to the rock, I'd suggest there was something special about it.  "Specialness" of some sort is implied by the massive effort to obtain it and also where it was placed in the middle of the circle. Perhaps it was special in itself, or maybe the place it came from, or just who gifted it.  We don't know.

[Cantabrigian]

Also - shocking suggestion - modern day experts are not as good at raft and/or boat building as Neolithic man.

I doubt there's many raft building experts around in the UK nowadays, and those that do exist would use plastic barrels and such things for flotation.

If the thing did come from northern Scotland, then it seems more likely to me that it was a gift from the locals, rather than people coming all the way from Wiltshire looking for suitable stones.