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Greek and Roman Tactics

Started by Imperial Dave, November 27, 2024, 04:11:51 PM

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Imperial Dave

Former Slingshot editor


Justin Swanton

Hate to puncture the balloon, but the Pyrrhic war was not "the test for the ancient Greek warfare tactics against the Roman legions" since ancient Greek warfare was pretty much a dead duck at this point, superceded by Macedonian pike phalanx warfare which Pyrrhus employed in Italy.

Erpingham

It was interesting to read a description of the Roman army which didn't mention the pilum.  But then, the Greeks don't seem to have the sarissa either.  A curious piece.


Erpingham

Quote from: Jim Webster on November 27, 2024, 05:17:04 PMAs a dire warning?

"This is how bad Slingshot could become if we don't watch out" perhaps?


Ian61

Question following above comments when did the Romans start to use the pilum? I have always assumed Punic wars, ie after Pyrrhus.
Ian Piper
Norton Fitzwarren, Somerset

Duncan Head

Quote from: Ian61 on November 27, 2024, 07:58:39 PMQuestion following above comments when did the Romans start to use the pilum? I have always assumed Punic wars, ie after Pyrrhus.
It's used by hastati in Livy's description of the army in the 340s. IIRC there are a few earlier mentions that some people think might be reliable, and others doubt. There's at least one Etruscan excavated example that's reckoned to be 5th century.
Duncan Head

Ian61

Thanks Duncan. One assumes that if the Etruscans had them they would certainly have been available to the Romans earlier than I had though.
PS We did have the hastati using them in our Ilipa game.
Ian Piper
Norton Fitzwarren, Somerset

Duncan Head

I've just found The origins of the Roman pilum revisited, which you might find an interesting look at the evidence.
Duncan Head

aligern

I thought that Italian infantry began with javelins that developed into pila, the heads gradually lengthening. Isn't it the Certosa situla that shows round shields and long as separate grades or contingents of troops. This would have been an Italian system of weapons and tactics that  the  Romans started out with. The Romans likely started out operating like Samnites or Latins. , or indeed, much like Thracians if we go back to when they were goat herding hill tribes.
Roy

Ian61

Quote from: Duncan Head on November 27, 2024, 10:57:07 PMI've just found The origins of the Roman pilum revisited, which you might find an interesting look at the evidence.
Thanks for reference, that was an interesting read. One point struck me that I had heard about with reference to swords but not understood that it was more general.
QuoteIndeed, it should also be noted that, while the archaeology of Roman military equipment is largely non-existent for this period, this type of equipment is visible in the record for Rome's allies during this period.
Do we actually know is why this is? it's not like the Romans weren't fighting all over the peninsula in the period.
Ian Piper
Norton Fitzwarren, Somerset

Duncan Head

Quote from: Ian61 on November 28, 2024, 08:42:59 AM
QuoteIndeed, it should also be noted that, while the archaeology of Roman military equipment is largely non-existent for this period, this type of equipment is visible in the record for Rome's allies during this period.
Do we actually know is why this is? it's not like the Romans weren't fighting all over the peninsula in the period.
Not so much "all over the peninsula" in the 4th century, but all over the middle bits, certainly. I would guess that this is partly because Romans don't tend to bury people with weapons, while some other Italian peoples do.
Duncan Head

nikgaukroger

Quote from: Duncan Head on November 28, 2024, 11:13:11 AM
Quote from: Ian61 on November 28, 2024, 08:42:59 AM
QuoteIndeed, it should also be noted that, while the archaeology of Roman military equipment is largely non-existent for this period, this type of equipment is visible in the record for Rome's allies during this period.
Do we actually know is why this is? it's not like the Romans weren't fighting all over the peninsula in the period.
Not so much "all over the peninsula" in the 4th century, but all over the middle bits, certainly. I would guess that this is partly because Romans don't tend to bury people with weapons, while some other Italian peoples do.


And then when they get incorporated into the Roman network they seem to stop (IIRC).
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."