SoA Forums

Quote from: DBS on December 14, 2023, 03:30:39 PM

Quote from: lionheartrjc on December 14, 2023, 09:23:41 AMBy the middle of the 1st century BC the republic must have been capable of producing thousands of mail shirts.

Yes and no.  My problem with this hypothesis is that I am not aware of much evidence of any sustained state enterprise before the principate. 

I don't think it was "state" enterprise as such.  It was senatorial enterprise - they were the generals who needed the troops to have this sort of stuff.  I believe there is some evidence of this sort of fabrication in northern Italy (Cisalpine Gaul) although I cannot find the paper where I read this at the moment.

It seems to me we are moving from a technological explanation to a wider social/political/economic/technical combination, where a well-equipped and trained military is just the tip of the spear.

Quote from: Erpingham on December 15, 2023, 09:48:02 AMIt seems to me we are moving from a technological explanation to a wider social/political/economic/technical combination, where a well-equipped and trained military is just the tip of the spear.

My pet theory is that the explosive expansion of the Roman Empire was partly driven by the decision to award Roman citizenship to the Latins, and gradually after that to ever larger areas of Italy and eventually Europe.  I think before that citizenship had been limited to a single city - a whole country of citizens was an innovation.

I'd buy that,
I think without the population around Latium being large enough to reflate the army repeatedly, they would have had to seek terms with most of their opponents. 
It was that numeric ability to hold out, retrain and re engage that got them past pretty much everyone they met up to the second Punic.
Ditto Caesar being able to stay in Gaul for so long, etc.

The Roman willingness to grant citizenship (of varying types) to a large number of people is widely seen as a significant factor in its success in creating its empire.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 09, 2024, 07:31:10 AMThe Roman willingness to grant citizenship (of varying types) to a large number of people is widely seen as a significant factor in its success in creating its empire.

and its achilles heel...

Or not as the case probably was.

Indeed.  Greek xenophobia - together with their preference for beating each other up rather than uniting against common enemies - was a real Achilles heel.  Hard to see how Roman openness, even if grudging at times, was a problem at all.

by making everyone a citizen in the 3rd century it effectively removed a fundamental building block in the sustainability of the empire in the long term. 'Outsiders' could become citizens by entering the empire and needed no qualification period like, for instance, the auxiliary soldiers who needed to serve for 25 years before reaping the full benefits of the empire in later life. 'Barbarians' could enter (ergo invade) to assume citizenship

anyway, thats my take 

Quote from: Imperial Dave on January 09, 2024, 11:32:16 AMby making everyone a citizen in the 3rd century it effectively removed a fundamental building block in the sustainability of the empire in the long term. 'Outsiders' could become citizens by entering the empire and needed no qualification period like, for instance, the auxiliary soldiers who needed to serve for 25 years before reaping the full benefits of the empire in later life. 'Barbarians' could enter (ergo invade) to assume citizenship

anyway, thats my take 

Gibbon would be proud of you    However, I think understanding and interpretation has moved on quite a lot since then 

Quote from: Imperial Dave on January 09, 2024, 11:32:16 AMby making everyone a citizen in the 3rd century it effectively removed a fundamental building block in the sustainability of the empire in the long term.

But this is the 3rd century AD, long after the Republican expansions.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 09, 2024, 12:05:02 PM

Quote from: Imperial Dave on January 09, 2024, 11:32:16 AMby making everyone a citizen in the 3rd century it effectively removed a fundamental building block in the sustainability of the empire in the long term. 'Outsiders' could become citizens by entering the empire and needed no qualification period like, for instance, the auxiliary soldiers who needed to serve for 25 years before reaping the full benefits of the empire in later life. 'Barbarians' could enter (ergo invade) to assume citizenship

anyway, thats my take 

Gibbon would be proud of you    However, I think understanding and interpretation has moved on quite a lot since then 

😊