The Empire is dead, long live the army

[Duncan Head]

Eugippius' full Life of St Severinus is translated at http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/severinus_02_text.htm. The Latin is at http://thelatinlibrary.com/eugippius.html and the relevant bit reads:

Qua consuetudine desinente simul militares turmae sunt deletae cum limite, Batavino utcumque numero perdurante.

So it's the turmae that have disappeared; but while this normally means "troops of cavalry", that's not explicit here, rather Eugippius has turmae militares.

The Batavian troops are called a numerus, although Tertullian footnotes:

The cohors nova Batavorum, according to the Notitia Dignitatum. The town, that is, was a military station, and took its name from the garrison.

Hodgkin's "legion" looks badly out of place.

And just to tie in to another strand in this well-woven thread:

CHAPTER VII.
Among such visitants was Odoacer, later king of Italy, then a tall youth, meanly clad. While he stood, stooping that his head might not touch the roof of the lowly cell, he learned from the man of God that he was to win renown. For as the young man bade him farewell, "Go forth!" said Severinus, "Go forth to Italy! Now clad in wretched hides, thou shalt soon distribute rich gifts to many."

(Spelt "Odovacar", for what that may be worth!) 

[aligern]

I am following Hodgkin here, but Odovakar  may well be nearer the original Gothic than Odoacer. 
He. gives a definition something like Bright Watch dog.


The latin of Eugippius is not easy apparently. It is of interest that Eugippius uses both turma and numerus which I think, are current and technically relevant in his time to describe cavalry and infantry. I suspect that we would find Ammianus using such terms  without soecifically saying that the unit was cavalry or infantry because it would be understood. These  could simply be for literary effect or he could really mean that the turmae disappear and the numeri move into towns, abandoning the limes. Its a very different interpretation from the one at the Tertullian site. Against the Tertullian translation is that it is tautologous., but that would not  be unusual.



Roy

[Justin Swanton]

This from Eugippius ch Xx cited in Hodgkin Italy and her Invaders Bk III p165

'Per id tempus quo Romanu constabat imperium, multorum milites oppidorum pro custodia limitis publicis stipendiis alebantur.
Which Hodgkin translates as:
'At that time, says Eugippius , when the Roman Empire still held together, the soldiers of many towns , were supported by public pay for the better guardianship of the limes'. This obscure sentence perhaps means that local troops were drafted off to the limes and there received, as was natural, imperial pay and equipments. ' When this custom ceased the squadrons (turmae)  of cavalry were obliterated; but the Batavian legion, (stationed at Passau) lasted as long as the limes itself stood.  From this legion certain soldiers had gone forth to Italy to bear to their comrades their last pay and these men had been slain on the march by the barbarians, no one knowing thereof.
'Qua consuetudine desinente simul militares turmae sunt deletae, cum limite Batavino utcunque numero perdurante ex quo perrexerant qui quidam ad Italiam extremum stipendium commilitonibus allaturi, quos in itinere peremptos a barbaris nullus agnoverat.

What is really interesting here is, if the translation can be sustained (and Hodgkin is a very good Latinist) a mention of the loss of the cavalry squadrons and the placement of the infantry in towns as garrisons.

Pick at that one :-))
Roy

Since you suggest it 

'Per idem tempus, quo Romanum constabat imperium, multorum milites oppidorum pro custodia limitis publicis stipendiis alebantur. Qua consuetudine desinente simul militares turmae sunt deletae cum limite, Batavino utcumque numero perdurante. Ex quo perrexerant quidam ad Italiam extremum stipendium commilitonibus allaturi, quos in itinere peremptos a barbaris nullus agnoverat.

Better translated as:

'Throughout that time in which the Roman empire endured, the soldiers of many towns were maintained by public taxes for the defence of the frontier. When the custom stopped both the troops of soldiers and the frontier ceased to exist, notwithstanding that a band of men remained at Batavinum. From this band some went to Italy to bring back the last pay to their fellow-soldiers, and no-one knew they had been annihilated on their journey by the barbarians.'

Translators I find do sometimes tend to bring their preconceptions to their task.

[rodge]

CHAPTER VII.
Among such visitants was Odoacer, later king of Italy, then a tall youth, meanly clad. While he stood, stooping that his head might not touch the roof of the lowly cell, he learned from the man of God that he was to win renown. For as the young man bade him farewell, "Go forth!" said Severinus, "Go forth to Italy! Now clad in wretched hides, thou shalt soon distribute rich gifts to many."

(Spelt "Odovacar", for what that may be worth!)

Handy if we could date this meeting....

[Duncan Head]

It is of interest that Eugippius uses both turma and numerus which I think, are current and technically relevant in his time to describe cavalry and infantry.

I don't think that is the case, quite: turma always meant a cavalry unit, but we know of cavalry numeri , so that word was not specifically an infantry term. The problem is that Eugippius' turmae militares, "turmae of soldiers", rather suggests that he is not using the term in a technical sense.

[Patrick Waterson]

The problem is that Eugippius' turmae militares, "turmae of soldiers", rather suggests that he is not using the term in a technical sense.

Assuming Eugippus understood that a miles was meant to be a footsoldier and not just an armed man - had the distinction become a bit blurred by his time?

[Justin Swanton]

'Childeric fought a battle at Orleans'
Penguin Classics, The History of the Franks, trans Thorpe 1974
'Now Childeric fought at Orleans and Odoacer came with the Saxons to Angers.'
Brehaut, 1916 http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/gregory-hist.asp#book3

'Pugnas' is the plural of 'pugna' suggesting more than one battle, in fact, multiple engagements at Orleans.
Patrick has suggested to me that 'Pugnas egit' presumably means 'pugnas agit', literally he 'did battles', but as 5thC Church Latin is not my strongpoint could we have a view on this?

Whilst giving my rusty Latin an airing I might have one or two things to say about this passage.

18. Quod Childericus Aurilianus et Andecavo venit Odovacrius. Igitur Childericus Aurilianis pugnas egit, Adovacrius vero cum Saxonibus Andecavo venit. Magna tunc lues populum devastavit. Mortuus est autem Egidius et reliquit filium Syagrium nomine. Quo defuncto, Adovacrius de Andecavo vel aliis locis obsedes accepit. Brittani de Bituricas a Gothis expulsi sunt, multis apud Dolensim vicum peremptis. Paulos vero comes cum Romanis ac Francis Gothis bella intulit et praedas egit. Veniente vero Adovacrio Andecavus, Childericus rex sequenti die advenit, interemptoque Paulo comite, civitatem obtinuit. Magnum ea die incendio domus aeclesiae concremata est. 19. Bellum inter Saxones ac Romanus. His ita gestis, inter Saxones atque Romanos bellum gestum est; sed Saxones terga vertentes, multos de suis, Romanis insequentibus, gladio reliquerunt; insolae eorum cum multo populo interempto a Francis captae atque subversi sunt. Eo anno minse nono terra tremuit. Odovacrius cum Childerico foedus iniit, Alamannusque, qui partem Italiae pervaserant, subiugarunt.

Egit is in the past tense and pugnas is indeed plural, hence 'he fought battles'.

What is interesting is the linking phrase between 18 and 19: His ita gestis. 'His gestis' is an ablative absolute. It is often used in the present tense with the sense of something happening simultaneously with something else. Gregory uses it in the previous paragraph:

Factum est autem quadam die, ut, sedente ea in basilica ac legente, adveniret quidam pauper ad orationem

It came to pass that one day, whilst she was sitting and reading in the basilica, a certain poor man came in to pray."

Used in the past tense, it has the sense of a direct temporal link between two events, or so my Latin tells me. The use of 'ita' - 'thus' - in 'His ita gestis' reinforces this close temporal link: 'These things, having been done thus, there was war between the Saxons and Romans."

For me, to put a gap of several years between the two events linked by this phrase is to force unreasonably the text and context of the Latin. Maybe there was a gap of several years, but then one would need to affirm that Gregory was unaware of it.

[Jim Webster]

One question I have is why the action has suddenly shifted to Italy: the Romans defeat the Saxons, the Franks ravage 'their' (the Saxons') islands, there is an earthquake.  Then Odoacer makes an alliance with Childeric (a bit late in the campaign season) and they 'subdue' the Alemanni (as opposed to expelling them?), the Alemanni having overrun that part of Italy.

When, how and why did everyone suddenly move to Italy?

It was this shift in narrative which initially made me think that there was a long(ish) gap between the episodes

Jim

[Jim Webster]

Horses are expensive to replace and they're not cheap to keep either. It might be that they degenerated into infantry. Certainly in Cyrenia we have the account of the local commander allowing his cavalry with bows to degenerate to infantry with bows (and he pocketed the difference)

Jim

[aligern]

Odovacar's Career
I tend towards a view that Odovacar is the son of Edeco king of the Sciri and younger brother of Hunwulf. i think its John of Antioch who has Odoacer as being born in 433 and thus 60 when he is killed by Theoderic the Great.
The sciri take on the Pannonian (Ostro) goths in alliance with the Suavi under Hunimund. they win an initial victory with a surprise attack, but are then crushed by the Goths who unite their forces. Later at the battle of the Bolia (check Jordanes) an alluance of tribes that opposes the Goths is given a thorough veating and the Sciri disappear.  Hunwulf takes service with the Eastern Empire , which employment he leaves later to join Odovacar in Italy.
My belief is that Odovacar goes West when his brother heads East as the Sciri are no more. he thus crosses into Italy , with his followers in late 469 or early 470 to take employment with Ricimer.
It makes good sense that the two brothers head for  separate sections of the Empire, it gives a bit of insurance. I think that its at this time that there is migration to the West of others who had previously served Majorian, but this time they bring families and it is this tribal or sub tribal migration that causes the army of Italy to change because, when a warband is hiring out it is composed of single men, but when a tribe migrates it brings its women. Hence, down the line the barbarians wanted land from Orestes, upon which to settle. It is quite different being 20 and drinking and whoring your pay, from being 30 and getting an earful about settling down, the standards of local schools and wanting a nice neighbourhood.
So Odovacar crosses the Alps in travel worn leathers, with followers as he is a prince of the Scirian Royal family. Hence it is not too difficult for St Severinus to predict a good future for him. When the federates grievances come to head he is a natural leader  because he is already a German Royal and thus can unite the tribes .
Roy

[Justin Swanton]

One question I have is why the action has suddenly shifted to Italy: the Romans defeat the Saxons, the Franks ravage 'their' (the Saxons') islands, there is an earthquake.  Then Odoacer makes an alliance with Childeric (a bit late in the campaign season) and they 'subdue' the Alemanni (as opposed to expelling them?), the Alemanni having overrun that part of Italy.

When, how and why did everyone suddenly move to Italy?

It was this shift in narrative which initially made me think that there was a long(ish) gap between the episodes

Jim

There's no 'that', at least in the latin text I have. The line is:

'Eo anno minse nono terra tremuit. Odovacrius cum Childerico foedus iniit, Alamannusque, qui partem Italiae pervaserant, subiugarunt.'

'In that year in the ninth month the earth shook. Odovacrius made an alliance with Childeric, and subjugated the Alamans, who had occupied a part of Italy.'

One needs to keep in mind that for as long as the empire existed the emperors, and in consequence their entourage, continued to think big. There is perhaps the notion of the last emperors trying to cling on to Italy, leaving the rest of the former empire to the outer darkness, but we have a Majorian who just a few years before attempted to reconquer Gaul, Spain and north Africa, and an Anthemus who a few years after this passage would try substantially to do the same thing, bringing in the Eastern Empire against the Vandals and the Bretons/Britons (no, this time I don't think it was the legion!) against the Visigoths.

Communications seem to have remained good and the infrastructure more intact than is commonly supposed. For Odoacer to first sort things out in northern Gaul and then sort things out in Italy is quite normal.

[aligern]

As so often, Jim makes a good point about the relationship to land crops and anumals. Horses are expensive to keep, and they need to be part of a system of supply. To have cavalry units you need studs and farms and stables. You also need  a lot of replacements, particularly if there is an outbreak of disease because horses are susceptible to such, particularly when kept  together over winter.
Horse keeping friends tell me that , in temperate climates it takes about 1.5 acres to keep a horse, depending upon the local climate, productivity of the land etc and there needs to be a supply of grain for winter months, especially if in a snowy zone.
So, if the tax take and grain shipments declined the cavalry would be under severe threat of disintegration, whereas the infantry would need a lot less support, though locating them in a town and giving them its taxes would be a good way to go.
One point about limes. If the other  side of the wall and tower system becomes hostile then a town on the frontier faces the same problem as a seaside town, that is for any given size it needs twice the hinterland on its safe side as a town with hinterland encircling it. So, if it takes say ten miles of land all around a town in the middle of a province then a limes town with a hostile land across the frontier need a half circle with a 20 mile boundary to sustain it and that is harder because ten miles is a walk to to market with your cart and 20 miles is a bit more than that. Those mathematics will keep frontier towns smaller and less viable once the land to the front has been lost. That's not so much of a problem when the Empire is powerful, but when it is receding and the barbarians are raiding into the area on the Roman side too the town will quickly become depopulated. It is fair enough for a garrisoned town to provide a refuge,but to be fed the garrison has to The Romans having  regular legionary infantry in the West in 452 is problematic.  Aetius must lead some troops out of Italy, but he clearly has not got enough to face Attila without the help of the Visigoths. Aetius has several contingents assembled from Gaul and those are near the battlefield  so we can assume that they are not small.  That indicates that the force from Italy was small and I suggest, moved fast and was all cavalry. security to the hinterland and if that's a 20 mile frontier it is dimensionally harder than a ten mile circle.
Roy

[rodge]

Used in the past tense, it has the sense of a direct temporal link between two events, or so my Latin tells me. The use of 'ita' - 'thus' - in 'His ita gestis' reinforces this close temporal link: 'These things, having been done thus, there was war between the Saxons and Romans."
For me, to put a gap of several years between the two events linked by this phrase is to force unreasonably the text and context of the Latin. Maybe there was a gap of several years, but then one would need to affirm that Gregory was unaware of it.

Thanks Justin. What form is the Latin you posted from Gregory: Vulgate or Church?

[Justin Swanton]

Used in the past tense, it has the sense of a direct temporal link between two events, or so my Latin tells me. The use of 'ita' - 'thus' - in 'His ita gestis' reinforces this close temporal link: 'These things, having been done thus, there was war between the Saxons and Romans."
For me, to put a gap of several years between the two events linked by this phrase is to force unreasonably the text and context of the Latin. Maybe there was a gap of several years, but then one would need to affirm that Gregory was unaware of it.

Thanks Justin. What form is the Latin you posted from Gregory: Vulgate or Church?

Neither really. Church Latin came into existence in the middle ages, in which construction was simplified and word order more closely followed the Germanic languages, of which English. The Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible, done by St Jerome. It was based the Itala, a former translation, and was more of a transliteration, closely following the Hebrew and Greek.

Gregory of Tours seems to use a form of late Latin, of which the construction is not as involved as classical Latin. I'm really no erudite, but all I can say is that his syntax seems pretty good although his spelling can be bad: writing 'in the month' - 'mense' as minse is quite a howler, which is why I'm not too concerned about Odovacrius-Adovacrius.

[Justin Swanton]

Come to think of it, the two paragraphs of Gregory are stuffed full of ablative absolutes:

Quo defuncto
multis apud Dolensim vicum peremptis
Veniente vero Adovacrio
interemptoque Paulo comite
Romanis insequentibus

All with the sense of one thing happening at the same time as another, or immediately after another.