it might be useful to put some thoughts on this down, and get some counter opinions.
we have confused the harassing effect of javelin skirmishers (who let us not forget are mostly used to cover the battle line deployment, not to engage in the actual main battle itself), with a kill shot.
and extrapolated that to cover all uses of javelins as a killing weapon.
1. shields and armour work
2. thrust disipates
3. plunging fire is pointless.
4. run up and back pull
5. you can see the thing and dodge it / block it with your shield
1. There is loads of evidence of this, the only exception is Pila at short (under 25m) range and then it doesn't kill the man unless he holds the shield close to his chest, it just sticks in the shield and makes it unusable.
2. all this stuff about maximum distance and range ignores that after the human powered thrust has dissipated, you are just passing sticks around, with no chance of a meaningful impact. after a comparatively short range, the human power behind the throw is gone and you are relying on gravity, hardly a killing power.
3. unaimed indirect throwing i.e. overhead throwing can never have any human powered thrust behind it. even if you are 'aiming' at a target static and deep enough to be confident of hitting something, by throwing it up, and relying on gravity to power the actual impact blow, you are guaranteeing nothing more than harassing impacts, and they are almost always wearing helmets anyway.
4. you need a lot of space forward and behind you to actually throw a javelin, it cannot be done from a rank based formation without greatly endangering your own people. javelins are not blunt at the back, and to get the power for a proper thrust you also need momentum behind it from a run up of at least a half dozen meters. none of this is possible other than for the front rank man throwing as he charges in.
5. self evidently - even the ancient sources themselves talk of heroes sidestepping javelins thrown at them.
in short, if you are in skirmish order, you have the space to run about throwing javelins at other lightly armed boys - but other than minor grazes or a very unlucky choice on when to duck and when to weave, its never going to actually inflict a serious wound. this seems to me one of the best reasons to put young boys into the skirmish line, and get them used to a battle environment in comparative safety.
javelin fire should be treated as a nuisance effect, as a preparatory impact on morale, and in the case of the most effective short range example (Pila), as a way to disable the front rank shields as you hit them with your sword, not as a killing weapon of itself.
Pila also have the advantage that you are actively aiming at the big shield in front of you, not at the small head behind it moving about a bit with a helmet on the top half.
There is great value in the nuisance impact of having to deal with incoming javelins, of having to block with shield, of worrying about a thing buzzing about your head - its not a useless weapon even if it cannot kill you - but it is not a killing weapon.
we should reconsider how rules handle all javelin forms of combat. the idea that only a kill matters is wrong.
Love the '...just passing sticks around' comment 😁 . All valid stuff 👍👍
:)
Really interesting thread...!
I think we have to start with the premise that javelins had some effect or people wouldn't keep using them. If having boys capering in front of an enemy unit using harsh language was as effective, I think we would have seen more of it.
So I think we can assume that with skirmishing javelin fire, you degrade an enemy unit more effectively that by shouting abuse (hardly a high bar.)
I also think we may have to distinguish between skirmish and mass. With the pilum, I have always had the impression that at least one rank of close(ish) order infantry threw at once. Perhaps more. So this is very different to the skirmishers. So would a Samnite unit facing off against a Roman unit (or other javelin armed 'heavy infantry' expect more from their javelins than when skirmishers throw them.
Plunging fire may not be that effective, but if you get enough of it, the target unit is going to have to act, men will be injured. Not necessarily killed, but a dead man just lies there, a wounded man gives his mate an excuse to leave the battle line and help him to the rear.
Also if troops stop and raise their shields to block these descending javelins they're not braced and ready for the throwers who continued their run forward and turned it into a charge.
So I think that we are right to look at the effectiveness of javelin skirmishers. But then they did make a mess of the Athenians in Aetolia, perhaps because troops who can make no effective response and just have to take it, eventually get demoralised.
So Heavy infantry in a battle line, advancing (or soon to be advancing) and sweeping the rough children in front of them are going to regard them as an irritation.
Heavy infantry who are stuck and just have to put up with the incoming javelins without any reasonable hope of responding or achieving anything are in a very different position.
Quote from: Jim Webster on October 26, 2024, 09:52:03 AMI think we have to start with the premise that javelins had some effect or people wouldn't keep using them.
I think this is usually a good point to start with. Rock throwing also took place - again not an obvious lethal weapon, but certainly not recommended to be struck on the head by. So nuisance and injury would be worthwhile.
We might also reflect on the English experience in Ireland in the 16th century. Irish kern were primarily javelin armed and were noted as being well practiced and accurate. The English felt their armour was effective against Irish javelins but thought the big risk was to their horses.
I can't comment on the killing element but a 1-2lb iron tipped projectile hitting you in partial free fall is going to hurt
It'll be well over 1000 newtons of force
Would not the point about plunging "fire" apply equally to arrows?
To a degree although the forces involved are different with arrows being much lighter. "Plunging fire" is going to hurt more with a javelin in principle but would depend on the circumstances eg height of fall, weight and speed on impact
We might pause to think what we mean by "plunging fire". Shooting/throwing from a distance will produce shots which are on a curved trajectory - they will be falling onto the target to some extent. Plenty of work on archery has been done to show there remains a dangerous amount of energy in arrows that are landing in this way. It is hard to see why javelins would be different, especially if they are falling point first. Fatal accidents and serious injuries still occassionally occur with sporting javelins today, which suggests their ancient ancestors would also be dangerous in similar circumstances.
If, however, by plunging we mean things shot on a deliberately high trajectory to drop at short range (e.g. from the back of a formation to drop into an enemy formation your unit is in contact with) we may be in different territory.
Although I don't see the point of chucking much above 45 degrees which means some kinetic energy is preserved before it starts dropping...
The idea that the target can see an inbound javelin and dodge or block with shield is potentially fallacious. Someone in the front rank might be able to see it, but if it is coming in at head height, men in the second or later ranks probably do not have a chance to see it. Even more so if it is coming in at something of a high angle. As for blocking it, that depends on the type of shield and the manner of carriage, not to mention speed of reaction. A phalangite with a shield on straps and both hands on his pike is probably not going to be able to do much against a missile, as opposed to nudging his shield to deflect a hostile pike or thrusting spear. A small or light shield might be mobile enough, but the shock of stopping a javelin impact is going to be painful even if it succeeds in deflecting.
Arrian, re the Alans, may just be going for a rhetorical flourish, but he talks of the "unbearable" barrage of javelins and arrows (which he thinks have a reasonable chance of stopping the Alans in their tracks before they even reach his line) causing confusion amongst the horses, and destruction amongst their riders (Campbell's translation). That would suggest that whilst he regards the missiles as less destructive in an outright manner on the horses, he does think they are going to hurt and kill the blokes astride them.
And do not forget that almost none of Arrian's troops have a clear, flat shot at the Alans, as the front rank are retaining their pila to thrust, and everyone else is throwing pila and javelins, or shooting arrows, over the front rank's heads, from the second through to ninth rank of the legionary line, which suggests a certain degree of high trajectory and certainly not much aiming.
Arrian has his provincial militia heavy infantry throwing rocks...
Oh, and there is no indication whatsoever that Arrian's ranks two to eight are running to throw their pila and javelins; quite the opposite, they are maintaining a close formation, with the front rank blocking any forward run, and the archers formed up as a ninth rank blocking them in behind. So probably no more than a pace or two in the file depth for each rank in which to move when lobbing their missiles.
May also include "what are javelin-armed skirmishers for?" There's a need, requirement or necessity to have some skirmishers and javelins are cheap to make, easy to use and if you carry a couple the enemy thinks you are soldierly, not baggage.
Agreed on the Arrian, as he thinks the volume of missiles worth throwing. Maybe their hit rate was low, but every enemy soldier is thinking "it might be me or my beloved horse that gets hit", so maybe deterrent value to nullify the enemy's number one weapon, their ferocious charge.
The late Roman armies changed to an emphasis on shooty weapons because a prolonged missile exchange would favour them over the often shooty-less, no armour, no helmet barbarians. Wounded individuals may be just as ineffective as the dead ones. But are we back to when is a javelin a combat spear to hold onto or a heavier throwing spear, and is this because the latter are dual-purpose, rather than a one-throw-only weapon?
And where do Alexander's Agrianes fit in? Javelin-armed light infantry who went everywhere he did - must have been something special about what they offered? Maybe they were just angry at always being picked for Alexander's 'death or glory' missions and someone was going to pay?
I'm not saying that the general is disappointed when every javelin throw is not a kill, but maybe they aren't meant to even though they are designed for it? Javelins have been around for a long time.
If nothing else it slows you down, makes you fearful and disrupts your formation.
Re the killing power effect....that would take a bit of research and mathematical deductions. I've started looking at kinetic energy stuff for starters
;D
Quote from: Imperial Dave on October 27, 2024, 06:07:51 AMI've started looking at kinetic energy stuff for starters
7.62x39mm bullets only weigh 18 grammes. A couple of decades ago, we used to keep a set of X-Ray prints at the embassy in Baghdad of such a projectile buried in the top of a victim's skull (he had fortunately survived thanks to excellent US surgeons). It was the result of the Iraqi security forces celebrating a football victory, firing hundreds of thousands of round into the air at night. What goes up, must come down. The rounds were spent, their velocity thanks to gravity alone, but were still potentially very lethal, and the point of the X-Rays was to impress upon newcomers the need to, at a minimum, wear their helmet, and far more importantly, get under hard cover when the football was on...
My point (pun intended) is that any projectile coming down on your head or shoulders is dangerous. Helmets might help, but a javelin with a wooden shaft adding to the weight of the weapon's head is still going to knock one silly, even if your bronze or iron helmet is not actually penetrated.
Agreed. Kinetic energy is very lethal when you get the mix of sharp things with weight falling from a great height...
A good example of the efficacity of javelins is the Battle of Lechaeum, when a mora of Spartan hoplites was defeated by javelin-armed peltasts, with nearly half the hoplites getting killed.
Two opposing javelin-armed skirmisher forces however have very little effect on each other. You've all seen that video of two Papua New Guinea tribes facing off against each other for an entire day with javelins and bows (using large, slow arrows), with a handful of injuries and no deaths. The unarmoured tribesmen had no trouble dodging each others' missiles.
I strongly suspect that the opponent that is going to scare a velite the most is a slinger. He can outrange you, and if any good can hit you with a potentially lethal, very fast, missile which you will be lucky to see coming, with less chance of dodging or blocking. I wonder whether this is why the small forces of expert slingers, eg the Balearic lads, were so highly prized; very, very good at driving off javelin skirmishers who might pose a threat to your main battle line?
Quote from: DBS on October 27, 2024, 12:19:57 PMI strongly suspect that the opponent that is going to scare a velite the most is a slinger. He can outrange you, and if any good can hit you with a potentially lethal, very fast, missile which you will be lucky to see coming, with less chance of dodging or blocking. I wonder whether this is why the small forces of expert slingers, eg the Balearic lads, were so highly prized; very, very good at driving off javelin skirmishers who might pose a threat to your main battle line?
For sure. Slingers could outrange archers, and lead pellets in particular were deadly at shorter ranges.
I perhaps didn't emphasis the conclusion enough.
Javelin exchange is about discomforting, disrupting and disordering.
There is a value in that, but we do not reflect that value in gaming because we insist on killing (or significantly wounding treated as a table top kill), which is wrong.
but onward.
A couple of the many interesting contributions raised are missing the point - comparisons with archery and bullets when plunging are misguided, because of the height those respective missiles reach before returning to ground - there is a totally different physics at play.
but there may be a case that a shallower throwing arc might still have a decent oomph behind it - if someone has the inclination to to do the physics, that would be interesting to see. jury still open on that point I think.
but the helmets and shields still work and these are only 'kill shots' for the very unlucky.
where the phalangite has a smaller shield which cannot be brought easily to cover, and of course has no room to physically move out of the way - he also has a hedge of very long spears overhead knocking the stuffing out of pretty much all incoming missiles - there just is no evidence of javelins or Pila achieving anything against a phananx, so this is a straw man.
similarly, excluding the skirmish dodging, and looking only at other rank formation targets - sure, he cannot dodge his body. but he doesn't need to. He just needs to raise his shield a few inches, or even just glance his head to the side.
If the target guy's face moves a little to the side, while the javelin may travel on the the rank behind - it is not likely to fall directly onto an unmoved and surprised face behind it, its going to be dipping, may have its haft knocked by the rank it passes over, and is much more likely to fall onto a solid and protective shield.
this is a tiny target we are suggesting is being aimed at here. Aiming at a face alone in a combat situation is just not realistic.
Its just not sensible to explain this as an effective use of a one off throwing chance.
And this is the point. javelins to the shield, or buzzing about your head are a nuisance, its a discomfort, it may even disorder and disrupt the will to fight. but it is not a kill (or severe wound).
even with the specific case of the Pila, aiming at the face is still not sensible - Aiming at the shield to disable it with a short range pila throw is sensible. that is a clear comparison, and opens up greater chance for the sword to achieve the kill effect against a opponent with a disabled shield impeding his performance.
so far it is the case from Arrian which stands out as worth more focus, I think.
This is a description of one battle in @ 134 AD. It also has the forces holding high ground - specifically for missile exchanges, and it stipulates the 8 ranks of legionaries are to be in close order with the front four ranks acting as spearmen, only the second half ranks are to act as javelinmen (and then a ninth rank added for archery). from an elevated defensive position, remember.
So first, the stated missile shower is designed to prevent the Alans (Scythians) from getting close - ranks 5-8 +9 are to discharge at longer ranges in a concerted attempt to panic the horses.
The expectation is it will prevent the enemy from closing not that it is used once engaged. so ranks 5-8 + 9 are there to act as a deterrent from engaging in combat.
But if they do press in under the deterrent, only the forth rank is the one to throw overhead into the melee.
again, disorder and disrupt.
(I am reminded of the Saracens using long range flight arrows vs their heavier killing arrows retained until a much closer range)
Should the Alans not be discouraged by this long range exchange and actually get into combat those rear 5 ranks are NOT admonished to discharge, their role has past, it is just the 4th rank adding an overhead javelin into the combat. stationary, no run up, overhead unaimed throws into the unseen depth of the enemy formation.
Only 1/9th of the formation is even attempting to throw a missile into the combat at a range close enough to have a chance of a kill effect, and that is overhead of three forward ranks, with no aiming.
1/9th is a pretty small proportion of the formation, to treat this as a kill chance is an overstatement of the effect when it is reflected on the table.
and let us consider the mechanics of the close order mid formation throwing.
you need a good couple of meters to pull back and throw, even without a run up. in the heat of battle, with a pointed tip behind, its a great risk to your own guys.
I think there is an example of ranks squatting down while the standing rank throws. this is just getting silly if we are expecting such a thing to really generate a powerful enough throw, over a distance where the object retains enough impact to achieve a deep enough penetration to materially affect the recipient - even assuming it actually hits something since it is unaimed - and the target cannot even be seen for all your own guys in front.
just passing some sticks over the top to unsettle the rear rankers, sure. but a kill shot? I really do not think so.
finally, this description is of a battle arrangement to deal with a new type of threat. It comes toward the end of the Pila period, they are to be replaced shortly by a different short range missile.
discomforting, disrupting and disordering, but not a kill effect.
Quote from: Mark G on October 27, 2024, 03:17:05 PM- there is a totally different physics at play
You didn't mean that did you? I'll be quoting Scotty from Star Trek if you did.
Not literally, I mean the effects of gravity from such a height are quite different from that achieved by a javelin thrown
Forces not physics.
This (https://youtu.be/RdApx7AAZHA?si=Tl5d0raJ8pXkwe-w) might be of interest. He quotes Statius who compares the range of an arrow to javelin as a ratio of 4 to 3. Since a bow is given a standard range of 200m that means a javelin with the help of ankyle could reach 150m. Modern Olympic javelineers can reach 100m without an ankyle, so that sounds about right.
He tests the speed and penetrating power of a javelin. Given that he can't throw a javelin beyond 35m even with an ankyle that suggests that a javelin thrown by a javelineer in Antiquity would have quite an impressive penetrating power.
Edit: thinking about it, 150m for a javelin sounds rather excessive, even using an ankyle. A Greek javelin weighed between 1000 and 1500g, compared to 800g for a modern javelin. Could javelineers in Antiquity really chuck a heavier weapon 50% further?
Quote from: Justin Swanton on October 27, 2024, 08:21:31 PM150m for a javelin sounds rather excessive, even using an ankyle. A Greek javelin weighed between 1000 and 1500g, compared to 800g for a modern javelin. Could javelineers in Antiquity really chuck a heavier weapon 50% further?
It might be time to remind people of this extensive topic (http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=3904.0) elsewhere on the forum. It has ancient evidence, modern experiments and some physics.
Indeed...many thanks Anthony
Quote from: Erpingham on October 28, 2024, 08:34:09 AMQuote from: Justin Swanton on October 27, 2024, 08:21:31 PM150m for a javelin sounds rather excessive, even using an ankyle. A Greek javelin weighed between 1000 and 1500g, compared to 800g for a modern javelin. Could javelineers in Antiquity really chuck a heavier weapon 50% further?
It might be time to remind people of this extensive topic (http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=3904.0) elsewhere on the forum. It has ancient evidence, modern experiments and some physics.
55-70m. Mmmh.
Perhaps the question is "would they" throw away their chief protection at such ranges? These are extreme ranges at which to take a punt and disarm yourself. Are they relying on some mates to hang on for closer range protection or relying on some peasant running out resupply?
If you have a free shot at a formed body of enemy troops then, sure, give it a hurl. But if faced by enemy skirmishers what is to gain from Olympian throwing prowess?
Quote from: stevenneate on October 28, 2024, 11:46:45 AMPerhaps the question is "would they" throw away their chief protection at such ranges? These are extreme ranges at which to take a punt and disarm yourself. Are they relying on some mates to hang on for closer range protection or relying on some peasant running out resupply?
If you have a free shot at a formed body of enemy troops then, sure, give it a hurl. But if faced by enemy skirmishers what is to gain from Olympian throwing prowess?
This is, of course, a major point in the previous discussion linked above. The difference between how far you could throw a javelin and how far it made sense to throw one. Which links to discussions of effective range meaning it gave you the effect you were after against the target. Patrick also made the point when discussing
gaesati that massed nude men made a tempting target for doing real harm but you didn't want to get close enough for them to rush you - avoiding harm would another element in judging tactical range as opposed to effective range.
Quote from: Erpingham on October 28, 2024, 12:14:23 PMQuote from: stevenneate on October 28, 2024, 11:46:45 AMPerhaps the question is "would they" throw away their chief protection at such ranges? These are extreme ranges at which to take a punt and disarm yourself. Are they relying on some mates to hang on for closer range protection or relying on some peasant running out resupply?
If you have a free shot at a formed body of enemy troops then, sure, give it a hurl. But if faced by enemy skirmishers what is to gain from Olympian throwing prowess?
This is, of course, a major point in the previous discussion linked above. The difference between how far you could throw a javelin and how far it made sense to throw one. Which links to discussions of effective range meaning it gave you the effect you were after against the target. Patrick also made the point when discussing gaesati that massed nude men made a tempting target for doing real harm but you didn't want to get close enough for them to rush you - avoiding harm would another element in judging tactical range as opposed to effective range.
I suspect this was the point of interjection - having LI files inserted between HI files. The LI can advance ahead of the HI, throw their javelins, then fall back immediately through the HI before their opponents can reach them. The moment the LI pass through, the HI double files from open to intermediate order and present a solid front to the enemy. It all happens in a few seconds.
Quote from: DBS on October 27, 2024, 06:34:35 AMThe rounds were spent, their velocity thanks to gravity alone, but were still potentially very lethal
If you remember your GCSE Physics, and ignore air drag for the moment, a bullet shot vertically upwards will eventually hit the earth with the same velocity as it was originally fired - i.e. the muzzle velocity of the gun.
For something like a pillum, the weight to drag ratio is high enough that you can probably ignore drag, and assume that it comes down at exactly the same speed you threw it up in the first place.
What a very simplistic arguement. I recommend reading my articles "A Ballistic Comparison of Trebuchet and Gunpowder Artillery" from 2010 or "Behind the Curve" from 2014 for a more rigorous approach.
Of course, I do not expect everyone to be able to master the techniques of numerical integration that are necessary to incorporate drag into ballistic calculations. However, there are readily available apps for sportsmen (individuals who enjoy killing wildlife with high powered firearms) that can do all the difficult maths for you.
8)
Having been on the team measuring javelin throws in athletics competitions many times I can agree with those above that they are easy to dodge. One of the perils of amateur but strong throwers is that they can be wildly off direction so watching essential. That said it is only really possible to track one at a time. If two were coming at same time then it's a problem. A good way to use would be smaller groups within the skirmishers releasing simultaneously towards the same area of the enemy (you don't want to run out of ammo too quickly.) This would keep the enemy on their toes and watching out.
I've been reading Jean Du Plessis's Light infantry in the Greek and Roman World. On the subject of the javelin, he mentions their modern use by huntsmen in both South Africa and the USA, where they are even capable of taking down a grizzly bear or a Cape buffalo at 40 paces. They may not have been effective against body armour, but that's no use if the enemy aims at your legs, as Philopoemen discovered.
Quote from: Ian61 on November 25, 2024, 11:21:14 AMHaving been on the team measuring javelin throws in athletics competitions many times I can agree with those above that they are easy to dodge. One of the perils of amateur but strong throwers is that they can be wildly off direction so watching essential. That said it is only really possible to track one at a time. If two were coming at same time then it's a problem. A good way to use would be smaller groups within the skirmishers releasing simultaneously towards the same area of the enemy (you don't want to run out of ammo too quickly.) This would keep the enemy on their toes and watching out.
Here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI4uirwxx1Y&list=PLnMpsZxxOl_UxgXpabl_8XyMfxa3MsYty) a familiar example of an all-day battle with javelins and bows involving very few casualties (both sides intended to kill but there were no fatalities despite hours of fighting). I imagine this is exactly how the skirmishing between psiloi went before the main battle.
Blimey