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A good example of the efficacity of javelins is the Battle of Lechaeum, when a mora of Spartan hoplites was defeated by javelin-armed peltasts, with nearly half the hoplites getting killed.

Two opposing javelin-armed skirmisher forces however have very little effect on each other. You've all seen that video of two Papua New Guinea tribes facing off against each other for an entire day with javelins and bows (using large, slow arrows), with a handful of injuries and no deaths. The unarmoured tribesmen had no trouble dodging each others' missiles.

I strongly suspect that the opponent that is going to scare a velite the most is a slinger.  He can outrange you, and if any good can hit you with a potentially lethal, very fast, missile which you will be lucky to see coming, with less chance of dodging or blocking.  I wonder whether this is why the small forces of expert slingers, eg the Balearic lads, were so highly prized; very, very good at driving off javelin skirmishers who might pose a threat to your main battle line?

Quote from: DBS on October 27, 2024, 12:19:57 PMI strongly suspect that the opponent that is going to scare a velite the most is a slinger.  He can outrange you, and if any good can hit you with a potentially lethal, very fast, missile which you will be lucky to see coming, with less chance of dodging or blocking.  I wonder whether this is why the small forces of expert slingers, eg the Balearic lads, were so highly prized; very, very good at driving off javelin skirmishers who might pose a threat to your main battle line?

For sure. Slingers could outrange archers, and lead pellets in particular were deadly at shorter ranges.

I perhaps didn't emphasis the conclusion enough.

Javelin exchange is about discomforting, disrupting and disordering.
 
There is a value in that, but we do not reflect that value in gaming because we insist on killing (or significantly wounding treated as a table top kill), which is wrong.

but onward.

A couple of the many interesting contributions raised are missing the point - comparisons with archery and bullets when plunging are misguided, because of the height those respective missiles reach before returning to ground - there is a totally different physics at play.
but there may be a case that a shallower throwing arc might still have a decent oomph behind it - if someone has the inclination to to do the physics, that would be interesting to see.  jury still open on that point I think.

but the helmets and shields still work and these are only 'kill shots' for the very unlucky.

where the phalangite has a smaller shield which cannot be brought easily to cover, and of course has no room to physically move out of the way - he also has a hedge of very long spears overhead knocking the stuffing out of pretty much all incoming missiles - there just is no evidence of javelins or Pila achieving anything against a phananx, so this is a straw man.

similarly, excluding the skirmish dodging, and looking only at other rank formation targets - sure, he cannot dodge his body.  but he doesn't need to.  He just needs to raise his shield a few inches, or even just glance his head to the side. 
If the target guy's face moves a little to the side, while the javelin may travel on the the rank behind - it is not likely to fall directly onto an unmoved and surprised face behind it, its going to be dipping, may have its haft knocked by the rank it passes over, and is much more likely to fall onto a solid and protective shield.
this is a tiny target we are suggesting is being aimed at here.  Aiming at a face alone in a combat situation is just not realistic. 
Its just not sensible to explain this as an effective use of a one off throwing chance.

And this is the point.  javelins to the shield, or buzzing about your head are a nuisance, its a discomfort, it may even disorder and disrupt the will to fight.  but it is not a kill (or severe wound).
even with the specific case of the Pila, aiming at the face is still not sensible -  Aiming at the shield to disable it with a short range pila throw is sensible.  that is a clear comparison, and opens up greater chance for the sword to achieve the kill effect against a opponent with a disabled shield impeding his performance.


so far it is the case from Arrian which stands out as worth more focus, I think.

This is a description of one battle in @ 134 AD.  It also has the forces holding high ground - specifically for missile exchanges, and it stipulates the 8 ranks of legionaries are to be in close order with the front four ranks acting as spearmen, only the second half ranks are to act as javelinmen (and then a ninth rank added for archery).  from an elevated defensive position, remember.

So first, the stated missile shower is designed to prevent the Alans (Scythians) from getting close - ranks 5-8 +9 are to discharge at longer ranges in a concerted attempt to panic the horses. 
The expectation is it will prevent the enemy from closing not that it is used once engaged. so ranks 5-8 + 9 are there to act as a deterrent from engaging in combat.
But if they do press in under the deterrent, only the forth rank is the one to throw overhead into the melee.
 
again, disorder and disrupt.
(I am reminded of the Saracens using long range flight arrows vs their heavier killing arrows retained until a much closer range)

Should the Alans not be discouraged by this long range exchange and actually get into combat those rear 5 ranks are NOT admonished to discharge, their role has past, it is just the 4th rank adding an overhead javelin into the combat.  stationary, no run up, overhead unaimed throws into the unseen depth of the enemy formation. 

Only 1/9th of the formation is even attempting to throw a missile into the combat at a range close enough to have a chance of a kill effect, and that is overhead of three forward ranks, with no aiming.

1/9th is a pretty small proportion of the formation, to treat this as a kill chance is an overstatement of the effect when it is reflected on the table.

and let us consider the mechanics of the close order mid formation throwing. 
you need a good couple of meters to pull back and throw, even without a run up.  in the heat of battle, with a pointed tip behind, its a great risk to your own guys.
I think there is an example of ranks squatting down while the standing rank throws.  this is just getting silly if we are expecting such a thing to really generate a powerful enough throw, over a distance where the object retains enough impact to achieve a deep enough penetration to materially affect the recipient - even assuming it actually hits something since it is unaimed - and the target cannot even be seen for all your own guys in front.
just passing some sticks over the top to unsettle the rear rankers, sure.  but a kill shot? I really do not think so.

finally, this description is of a battle arrangement to deal with a new type of threat.  It comes toward the end of the Pila period, they are to be replaced shortly by a different short range missile.

discomforting, disrupting and disordering, but not a kill effect.

Quote from: Mark G on October 27, 2024, 03:17:05 PM- there is a totally different physics at play

You didn't mean that did you?  I'll be quoting Scotty from Star Trek if you did.

Not literally, I mean the effects of gravity from such a height are quite different from that achieved by a javelin thrown

Forces not physics.

This might be of interest. He quotes Statius who compares the range of an arrow to javelin as a ratio of 4 to 3. Since a bow is given a standard range of 200m that means a javelin with the help of ankyle could reach 150m. Modern Olympic javelineers can reach 100m without an ankyle, so that sounds about right.

He tests the speed and penetrating power of a javelin. Given that he can't throw a javelin beyond 35m even with an ankyle that suggests that a javelin thrown by a javelineer in Antiquity would have quite an impressive penetrating power.

Edit: thinking about it, 150m for a javelin sounds rather excessive, even using an ankyle. A Greek javelin weighed between 1000 and 1500g, compared to 800g for a modern javelin. Could javelineers in Antiquity really chuck a heavier weapon 50% further?

Quote from: Justin Swanton on October 27, 2024, 08:21:31 PM150m for a javelin sounds rather excessive, even using an ankyle. A Greek javelin weighed between 1000 and 1500g, compared to 800g for a modern javelin. Could javelineers in Antiquity really chuck a heavier weapon 50% further?

It might be time to remind people of this extensive topic elsewhere on the forum.  It has ancient evidence, modern experiments and some physics. 

Indeed...many thanks Anthony

Quote from: Erpingham on October 28, 2024, 08:34:09 AM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on October 27, 2024, 08:21:31 PM150m for a javelin sounds rather excessive, even using an ankyle. A Greek javelin weighed between 1000 and 1500g, compared to 800g for a modern javelin. Could javelineers in Antiquity really chuck a heavier weapon 50% further?

It might be time to remind people of this extensive topic elsewhere on the forum.  It has ancient evidence, modern experiments and some physics. 

55-70m. Mmmh.

Perhaps the question is "would they" throw away their chief protection at such ranges? These are extreme ranges at which to take a punt and disarm yourself. Are they relying on some mates to hang on for closer range protection or relying on some peasant running out resupply?

If you have a free shot at a formed body of enemy troops then, sure, give it a hurl. But if faced by enemy skirmishers what is to gain from Olympian throwing prowess?

Quote from: stevenneate on October 28, 2024, 11:46:45 AMPerhaps the question is "would they" throw away their chief protection at such ranges? These are extreme ranges at which to take a punt and disarm yourself. Are they relying on some mates to hang on for closer range protection or relying on some peasant running out resupply?

If you have a free shot at a formed body of enemy troops then, sure, give it a hurl. But if faced by enemy skirmishers what is to gain from Olympian throwing prowess?

This is, of course, a major point in the previous discussion linked above.  The difference between how far you could throw a javelin and how far it made sense to throw one.  Which links to discussions of effective range meaning it gave you the effect you were after against the target.  Patrick also made the point when discussing gaesati that massed nude men made a tempting target for doing real harm but you didn't want to get close enough for them to rush you - avoiding harm would another element in judging tactical range as opposed to effective range.